http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d?format=rss Tribe.net. Local Connections http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#96234638-12ab-42be-8f5a-bddee063cc5d Call it aids if they die from it and happen to be hiv infected. Call it WHAT IT IS if they're not. Aids is not a disease. Hiv is NOT A DISEASE! Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:20:24 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#96234638-12ab-42be-8f5a-bddee063cc5d Loam 2008-12-12T22:20:24Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#c7e9c21b-d15a-417a-afe7-609d6987f7b2 There is no aids epidemic in Africa, only an epidemic of poverty, malnutrition, practically non-existent healthcare and poor hygiene, caused in part by YOUR OWN american, borgiose lifestyle. When an "hiv infected" person dies of tuberculosis in Africa, it's called AIDS. When a person who is not "hiv infected' dies of tuberculosis in Africa, its called TUBERCULOSIS. Fri, 12 Dec 2008 22:06:31 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#c7e9c21b-d15a-417a-afe7-609d6987f7b2 Loam 2008-12-12T22:06:31Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#c9fad7ca-ead8-4fc0-b159-13453c3bd0dc Here's a paste from the San Francisco Sex Information site, http://sfsi.org/wiki/Frequently_asked_questions >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The activities that put you at the highest risk for HIV infection are unprotected intercourse (having anal or vaginal intercourse without a condom) and sharing needles. Oral sex is considered a much lower-risk activity, although there is some debate over exactly how low-risk it is. Most clinicians agree that very few cases of HIV infection can be traced to oral sex. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< Hugs, Rig Daddy Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:42:38 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#c9fad7ca-ead8-4fc0-b159-13453c3bd0dc Rig 2008-12-10T19:42:38Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#2c696a4c-d8ae-4c7c-8727-79e33869a3be Hi Dave, No, I don't use condoms for oral sex. >>>You can still get HIV from oral sex. <<< The reported incidence of this is extremely small and may be questionable. As I understand the pathways for HIV infection, the chemistry of the mouth, throat and stomach make this route virtually impossible. The folks from SFSI (San Francisco Sex Information) speculate that bleeding gums MIGHT be a pathway but have never found any confirmed cases. Hugs, Rig Daddy Wed, 10 Dec 2008 19:35:15 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#2c696a4c-d8ae-4c7c-8727-79e33869a3be Rig 2008-12-10T19:35:15Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#d904f787-b06a-49d5-b7f3-3cd55dd523d9 Rig: >>Safer sex works. Yes, you have to be careful and reasonable. I am fluid bonded with a small poly family. Our POZ boyfriend is not fluid bonded with the rest of us so we all play safely with him. And it doesn't matter what the sero-status of my other sex partners is, if they are not part of my small family, then safer sex is always used. << Does this mean that you use condoms for giving oral sex? You can still get HIV from oral sex. Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:48:35 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#d904f787-b06a-49d5-b7f3-3cd55dd523d9 $item.owner.firstName 2008-12-10T18:48:35Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#9ebd85b6-12f4-44dc-a0d6-214dc89e16f8 Dave wrote: ...It makes me wonder what else they cannot comprehend... > In my experience, it's not just that they can't comprehend, it's that they can't be bothered too. Wed, 01 Oct 2008 18:34:30 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#9ebd85b6-12f4-44dc-a0d6-214dc89e16f8 skooter 2008-10-01T18:34:30Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#3e5dec1b-9dae-4356-80d6-d055f583655b This is why I stay home at night. Grown men who cannot comprehend that all of this can be avoided by changing their behavior. It makes me wonder what else they cannot comprehend. Wed, 01 Oct 2008 08:51:13 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#3e5dec1b-9dae-4356-80d6-d055f583655b Dave 2008-10-01T08:51:13Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#6fe5c07c-dc5a-4d02-b41a-ae706141d212 I am glad to see you guys discussing HIV. I have been living with the virus for going on 24 years now. I had safe sex with my first partner of 14 years starting 3 years after we met, when I was first diagnosed (the test had not been available to me before). He never seroconverted. Safe sex does work, no matter what fears people have about transmission. However, I have to respect people who would choose not to have sex with an HIV+ person out of fear of infection. It is a healthy fear and if it keeps you safe, then I am all for your motivation. Just know that it isn't all black or white and that some of us have to live in the gray area for the rest of our lives. Also, please do not lose sight of the fact that people with HIV are people and should be treated compassionately. I know some of you do. Others of you could use some education about gracefully negotiating relationships with HIV positive people. I won't name names...you know who you are. The denialists can and will defend their positions on HIV and medication because they truly believe their line of reasoning. George W. Bush truly believes he is a good President. If it works for them, then fine. I can just say that I am the last of about a dozen friends who were diagnosed around the same time and the only reason I am still here and they are not is that I gave up alcohol and took my medications as directed. Each of my friends rode the wave of new drug development as far as they could given their state of illness and their medication compliance. The last of my original friends died in 2004. Before AZT came along, no one survived an AIDS diagnosis. With each new drug that came along, more and more people lived longer, but not all of them. One thing that is true is that this is a chronic fatal disease. It will eventually kill everyone who contracts it either through direct HIV-related problems or from the wear and tear of living on daily, never-ending, no-breaks-at-all chemotherapy, and I choose my words carefully. These drugs are no picnic to take over time. Initially, it may not be so rough on a body, but over years, the impact on the body is intense. It is part of the cost of doing business in the fight against a virus that would otherwise kill within a few years. I now have to live not only with HIV, but also with medication-induced kidney disease, diabetes, neuropathy, increased incidence of heart disease, and those as yet undiagnosed factors like fatigue, nausea and chronic diarrhea. Want to know how difficult it is to remain compliant to the point you are considered safe from resistance? Adequate compliance for high blood pressure is 80%. That means you can forget 1 pill out of five and probably still be ok. With HIV, they estimate that you have to be 95% compliant for the rest of your life or you might develop resistance and the drug you are taking will stop working. In the 1980s when everyone who had HIV was dying of AIDS and before there were medications or even HIV tests, the gay community activists fought for expedited drug development and availability of access for drugs in development. This has had an impact on the way that the US government and medical establishment handle drugs of all kinds to this day. Read the side effects of any new drug today. Have dry eyes? Take this drug that might cause cancer and your eyes will "feel" better. Can't get it up? Take this little pill and you can both have sex for 36 hours AND go blind at the same time. We have traded in safety for convenience and we are all guilty of the consequences every time we listen to those drug company ads and rush off to tell our doctor what we are supposed to take for our self-diagnosed condition. Don't buy in....don't do it. I do agree with the denialists in this aspect of HIV. The meds are not easy to take. They have severe side effects. However, I would have likely been dead many, many years ago if it had not been for my meds. Thank you to those of you who pointed out that many people infected with HIV do not even know it. Do they list their status on social websites as "unsure" or do they click off "HIV-"? The most prudent way to protect yourself, and I am not telling you how to live your life, only how I would live mine given what I know now, is to assume that everyone you meet is HIV+ until you know that they are not. Be cautious but also be humane with others. Above all, be conscientious about your own status and do not put others at risk unnecessarily. Your karma is at stake, right? In the meantime, if you are serious about HIV and your part in it, get out there and volunteer to help those of us who do not have the means to help ourselves (I do not include myself, here. I am still kicking ass and taking names). There are all kinds of local AIDS organizations that need your volunteer time...and money ..., although getting in the trenches with us ( hold our hands, feed us, read to us, watch a movie with us, cook for us, whatever you can do, just do it) is even better than just writing a check. I suspect that if we all were to take this debate from a theoretical argument between denialists and those who disagree to a place where you see the daily needs of those whose needs are not met, it might alter some of the rhetoric in this debate. Finally, there is no place for "blame and shame" in this discussion. It is counter-productive and it draws a distinction between "innocent victims" and "those who deserve their deaths." An illness, a virus, does not distinguish between the guy who screws around indiscriminately without protection and the guy who has sex with that fellow without being aware of how to protect himself. I hope life is good for you all... Tue, 30 Sep 2008 13:53:06 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#6fe5c07c-dc5a-4d02-b41a-ae706141d212 Ron 2008-09-30T13:53:06Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#d21082ff-bc9d-49c6-bd27-be0c9fa1e6bd RIG-If your HIV+ boyfriend (are you and your wife bugchasers or something?!?!?!) has sex with the woman who you're married to he's not gay. He might try to pass off as being politically gay but he's not homosexual at all. If you want to go and have sex with people who are HIV+ nobody is stopping you but when you wind up HIV+ you'll only have yourself to blame. People who are HIV neg and knowingly have sex with HIV poz people are into risky sex, playing with fire, and they've got a death wish and are probably bug chasers even if they do repress it or don't even realize it themselves, or want to admit it. I know it's not PC to say this but it's true and HIV does equal a slow horrible death no matter how many toxic medications you take that harm your body (the meds while they might be good for combating HIV and keeping the TCell count from lowering are VERY bad to take), and the best way not to get HIV is not to have sex with Poz people or share needles if you IV drugs. When are the HIV poz people going to realize that the only way to rid our planet of this scourge is for them, as a group, to take the matter into their own hands and refuse to engage in sexual activity with anyone who is not HIV poz, ever, for any reason? Why cannot HIV+ people not recognize the power they have to make a great contribution to humanity by declaring that they will not, under any circumstance, engage in any behavior that carries with it the possibility of HIV transmission to another human being? Why is it that Poz people do not feel incredible remorse when engaging in behavior that carries this risk? Why is it that they are willing to serve only their desires and are willing to engage in sexual activity with anyone who does not question whether the risk of HIV transmission is present? Also let's not forget about how many people who are HIV+ also have Hepatitis C and how easily that can be transmitted to others. This troubles me greatly. I used to feel nothing but compassion for those with HIV, but the longer that I am exposed to their reckless behavior, the less I am able to hold compassion in my heart. I even know people who are HIV+ who don't tell others that they are when they have sex with them, even when they're asked by the other person/people, or when the other person/people want to swallow them or bareback them. I know Poz people who still bareback/swallow and don't care how many strains of HIV they get or pass onto others, and I even know HIV+ people who are involved in HIV educational centers and non profit orgs where they tell people how important it is to get tested and use condoms, yet they are all into bug chasing/breeding/"gift" giving and are totally cool with letting people gang fuck their ass every weekend and flood it with load after load. Do you even use condoms if you are going to suck some random strangers cock? Are you into swallowing random people or your HIV+ partner? You can get HIV from giving oral sex, and swallowing or having semen in your mouth is high risk for HIV; but it's not as risky as unprotected receptive anal sex or sharing a rig/works (needles) with an HIV+ person. Also just because someone is on medications it doesn't mean that your chances for gettting HIV are completely eliminated or that you can't get it from giving oral sex without or with swallowing, since viral loads can go up unexpectedly when someone is on meds. Yes PEP (the post exposure meds) are available but the side effects suck and you have to take them for months and it's no gaurentee that you won't become HIV+. Tue, 30 Sep 2008 09:03:07 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#d21082ff-bc9d-49c6-bd27-be0c9fa1e6bd $item.owner.firstName 2008-09-30T09:03:07Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#c977edfd-88c6-4ca4-9b83-aee7f1d59822 Interesting posts. I totally care about the HIV status of my partners but that does not mean I won't have sex with them if they are POZ. My boyfriend is POZ. Safer sex works. Yes, you have to be careful and reasonable. I am fluid bonded with a small poly family. Our POZ boyfriend is not fluid bonded with the rest of us so we all play safely with him. And it doesn't matter what the sero-status of my other sex partners is, if they are not part of my small family, then safer sex is always used. Here's the gig. Many (most?) people don't really know their HIV status. There are LOTS of people who think they are HIV- because they haven't bothered to check. I don't know who they are so I will use condoms with everyone, so asking, "knowning" their status doesn't matter when it comes to sex. Where the status of someone does matter is in everything else. I want to know if they have special dietary needs, meds or other issues that can effect their life style. I want to be as helpful and supportive s possible without being pushy or harping on their status. Hugs, Rig Daddy Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:00:45 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#c977edfd-88c6-4ca4-9b83-aee7f1d59822 Rig 2008-01-26T16:00:45Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#b33cb004-664d-4f09-b8a2-f45ca572ba3b Also people will say that condoms/safer sex work but in reality condoms only work to lower your risk of getting HIV, they aren't 100% and there's no such thing as "safe" sex. I'm fine with being friends with POZ people but I just don't have sex with them or get into relationships with them. Sat, 26 Jan 2008 07:16:56 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#b33cb004-664d-4f09-b8a2-f45ca572ba3b $item.owner.firstName 2008-01-26T07:16:56Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#168c366a-a381-4dd8-88a9-6b4378ba4717 Yes I do care about the status of my partners. I'd never have sex with an HIV+ person since I don't have a death wish, I would worry about eventually getting HIV from them, and I don't want to become HIV+. When I date and have a relationship with someone, someone we communicate, talk about each other's sexual history, and get tested together. If by chance I'm having a rare hook up/1 night stand I don't do sex acts that exchange fluids and I don't do high risk sex acts like anal sex with complete strangers. Also I will get sucked but I don't suck. Comparing HIV to diabetes is a very silly and very DANGEROUS thing to do and you should not compare both of them like that. I'm saying this because lots of people do compare the two and it's dangerous to do this. Also, yes some medications, even the modern ones, do wreck havoc on your body and have horrible side effects and they're not AZT. Also not all of the medications work for everyone or continue to keep working. The most important thing is not getting more HIV- people seroconverting to being Pozitive and the easiest way to do this is by having safer sex and not having sex with HIV+ people. Ask other Poz men and women if they're OK with having sex with HIV- people. Many will tell you flat out no since they're not comfortable with doing this because they don't want to pass on HIV to a perfectly healthy HIV negative person. Also just because you are HIV Pozitive it doesn't mean that you can have a bareback free for all without condoms since you can get reinfected with other strains of HIV, which make your HIV worse, and you can get other STDs too. Unless you have a death wish or are a bug chaser who think that getting HIV is not a big deal people who actually WANT this horrible disease or act like it's no big deal to become HIV+ have major mental problems and need therapy! HIV / AIDS is a terminal (fatal) condition. There is no cure and no vaccine. Classified as an "Infectious Disease" and Virus. Treatment for HIV does not mean that you will survive for a long period of time. Some survive for 10, 15 and 20 years while others die within 6 months to a year. Some medications used for HIV for slowing of the replication of the virus are fatal and all are toxic. If people want to stop the spread of HIV among all groups of people gay/het/bi/trans/male/female they should stop worrying about offending HIV+ people with ads that say that having HIV is a bad thing/death sentance, or all types of people saying how they still are hiv negative and stay hiv negative, and poz people talking about the reality of HIV and what it's like living with HIV+ and how it's not something you can just take pills for and be fine and how the ads for HIV meds are misleading since they show handsome buff men doing rock climbing. Sat, 26 Jan 2008 06:43:37 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#168c366a-a381-4dd8-88a9-6b4378ba4717 $item.owner.firstName 2008-01-26T06:43:37Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#98b229ac-05ef-4071-a470-329bfae3fc0d Tomás, to give you an idea of where I am now at in these threads, and this is like inhaling a baby grand for me, please refer any response I may have to matthew's last (long) post. Fri, 15 Dec 2006 05:00:45 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#98b229ac-05ef-4071-a470-329bfae3fc0d $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-15T05:00:45Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#e6728078-a9a9-4844-93d8-25092e799db1 Well, yeah! Replies, galore! Thanks for sharing your side of things, Wally. I certainly understand cranky. I have no hearing in my left ear, chronic tinitus in both, and limited muscle movement on my left-side face. When the atmospheric pressure changes, my head-pressure is such that I am almost completely deaf. Honestly, I can be sitting inches from your speaking lips and not able to discern what you are saying. And it hurts. My face fucking hurts, muscles consatantly contracted. As if looking like a freak while attempting something as normal as a smile isn't shitty enough. Now I must admit, while in repose, my face looks pretty normal - to all but my closest intimates. It's the mobility thing that's a bitch. While chewing, my left eye waters uncontrollably. And when I open my mouth (less widely on the left, natch,) my left eye closes corresopndingly. Hence, smiling is no longer something I enjoy. I also do not often dine in public. MMm, oh yeah and I sleep for hours at a time. Like 10 or more. Apparently, that's also a chronic symptom of my supposed Bell's Palsy- Oops we meant Neuro Syph. Fatigue. Mmm, Aren't the lingering afffects fun? Just what I signed up for. Did I mention that I lost about a third of my hair? So before I get all angsty, here, I really do understand your right to be cranky. Everyone has that right. Perhaps a positive outcome from all this might be, for all of us stay more aware of the affest our words have upon others. Also, to realize that sometimes when we are offended by words said or written, there was no offense intended. Sometimes things just don't come out so eloquent, ya know? I think that's pretty much a "well, DUH" here. I perceive you seem to have history with some other members of this tribe. May I suggest that all involved try messaging their antagonist's directly? That way, noone's crap has to be endured by the rest of the tribe, and there aren't people jumping down the throats of those who were not adressing them. BTW, I was so pissed about some your responses that I thought about just leaving the tribe. Or as Dominic said, saying mean and hurtful things to you and about you.( I think I'm paraphrasing him poorly.) Glad I didn't, glad HE didn't, glad this is all cleared up. I appreciate you education, and your belief in what you know. I have not the benefit of such education. I have only my experiences. Which, as I've said before, were less than wonderful. So I suppose you can call me a "dissident". That certainly seem more apt than "denialist". But I think I don't really need a title.... Peace, Raven Fri, 15 Dec 2006 04:50:16 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#e6728078-a9a9-4844-93d8-25092e799db1 Raven 2006-12-15T04:50:16Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#3a84a371-7049-4cd6-88f9-cbdcaf3aa907 myspace.com=child-space.com A website created by Rupert Murdock specifically for Children aged 8-18 Glad to see your a Member of it Tomas! *Nuff Said! "Go Home to your Mama liddle Boi" Fri, 15 Dec 2006 04:41:42 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#3a84a371-7049-4cd6-88f9-cbdcaf3aa907 Jake 2006-12-15T04:41:42Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#69040107-2aa7-4d1c-9e37-4023cd02e014 I can't say he is Stupid or anyone for that matter because he may not be aware or know what he is getting into.. meaning "the Other Side of AIDS" information. This Angers me because so many gay men are Caught up in this Religiously.. I TAKE THAT BACK I FORGOT ABOUT JAKE! ___________________________________________________________________________ MYSPACE.COM/HIVisaLIE Fri, 15 Dec 2006 01:16:20 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#69040107-2aa7-4d1c-9e37-4023cd02e014 Tomás 2006-12-15T01:16:20Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#d6315829-d8dd-4b70-ab23-c5276ada3a28 it's the thread that wouldn't die. Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:56:57 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#d6315829-d8dd-4b70-ab23-c5276ada3a28 automatthew 2006-12-14T23:56:57Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#dae454d0-da29-4521-af17-e300d1269e06 virusmyth.com a Website who's time has come..and gone, once again Tomas This as has been ALL of your other AIDS debunking websites is OLD News about AIDS. BUT...DO keep pushing it Kiddo.."Real People" will see right through it and through you since you and your information are as transparent as plastic wrap! What was it that got you started on this "Crusade"? Ohh yes,I remember now it was a "Playstation Game" of HIV Medications against a healthy immune system. Have you contacted ATARI yet? I see a HUGE money making opportunity slipping through your fingers! And Tomas? We all realise your an immature little boy who's still mad at his Mommy but DO keep your insults on this forum to yourself. Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:55:32 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#dae454d0-da29-4521-af17-e300d1269e06 Jake 2006-12-14T23:55:32Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#dc04047c-7b86-4927-931c-00a06885a6c4 Querido Tomas, amigo mio mas estimado, I may be guilty of anecdotal evidence, but it is firsthand. Perhaps it was spontaneous remission of whatever I had...all I know is that I am back up to 185 lbs. and no longer paranoid and the medical establishment's test parameters have me as relatively "healthy." Perhaps this is a case of using "post hoc, ergo propter hoc" logic, as D. H. Fisher terms it in Historians' Fallacies. Had you but seen my CAT scans and witnessed my paranoia, and my delusion levels and mania, you would not recognize me. today. My neurologist asked my sister who is 2 years younger if I were her father when she first met me. I know that Sustiva and Combivir is poison. But so is platinum and cobolt and yet they stops tumor growth...likewise, I prefer to keep my science physical vice metaphysical and honestly believe that if HIV does not cause AIDS, then whatever causes it certainly gets zapped along with HIV levels and CD4 counts rise after beginning HAART. My spiritual/metaphysical life is flourishing due to no longer being in a state of constant fatigue and paranoia and depression. But until my body and my brain grew back to resemble its former states, I was in a near-vegetative state when contrasted to my former active professional and social life. Now I am able to walk 4 or 5 miles with my dogs daily, research and write all day and night, enjoy music and visual art again, and no be afraid to go out of the house or burst windows in my friend's house to escape the evil surrounding me. We all have to go our own paths. I choose to put my trust in myself and my physicians. HIV does not define me. I do not let it. But if one allows a syndrome to define one's life, then it is in control of one's life. Best regards and I truly hope for the best of health for you, Tomas. SSS, Neal Thu, 14 Dec 2006 23:54:47 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#dc04047c-7b86-4927-931c-00a06885a6c4 neal 2006-12-14T23:54:47Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#05c3ceef-9fb5-48b9-bb0f-25a75844535b MickToday, 6:40 AM Tomás, with equal respec t- Mostly because I think it's a no-brainer. " Alrightie then.. Try this "No-Brainer"............Try the Virus Myth Australia exercise http://virusmyth.tripod.com/#exercise Cheers! Thu, 14 Dec 2006 22:26:27 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#05c3ceef-9fb5-48b9-bb0f-25a75844535b Tomás 2006-12-14T22:26:27Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#5edfe6f7-1570-45ba-aaca-ea2ce640ec60 Tomás, with equal respec t- Mostly because I think it's a no-brainer. "Mick Hey mate! With all Respect ...How can you call someone Dangerous and tell them to "Get Help" and not be able to explain(engage) why you said this?" Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:40:15 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#5edfe6f7-1570-45ba-aaca-ea2ce640ec60 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-14T14:40:15Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8401e2e2-06c8-49d0-9564-f46107dca24f Hey mate! With all Respect ...How can you call someone Dangerous and tell them to "Get Help" and not be able to explain(engage) why you said this? Every year in this Country that we call America The Popular Music Television (MTV) launches a "Marketing Teen age Format" of the "Get Tested" Campaign or "Knowing is Beautiful" .. isn't it an ODD generalization that the WORLDS Teenage (Promiscuous)Population has ALREADY an Extremely low rate of HIV Infection compared to granny and granpa GONE WILD? http://statehealthfacts.org/cgi-bin/healthfacts.cgi?action=compare&category=HIV%2fAIDS&subcategory=AIDS+Drug+Assistance+Program+%28ADAP%29&topic=ADAP+Clients+by+Age Thu, 14 Dec 2006 14:04:15 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8401e2e2-06c8-49d0-9564-f46107dca24f Tomás 2006-12-14T14:04:15Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#72c77afe-e08e-4e88-88f6-e91d70f733ec Wally, OK now that I have had so time to cool off myself, I want to address point by point, the things that you seem to be confused about on, So I will first you seem to feel that I said shut up I didn’t I even reread it just to make sure, In both post my intent is not to make you mad Wally its to point out that we as ADULTS, we should be able to talk with out calling each other names, and when I said that you y’all are being disrespectful to those who have died was AGAIN talking about the name calling, and the just being mean to each other…. As for the FOUR I was talking about yourself, Tomas, Gos, and wait for it Jake, there it is the FOURTH. You choose your words very carefully Wally as in “tripe”, then you move on to demean people by calling the under educated, but yet no one but me seems to feel the need to call you on it,just the insluts . And when I made those post I was talking to everyone just reminding all to nice and to rise above the need to say hurtful things, And when I ask about your degrees I was only asking because I did not know if you had said what they were or not, if you took that as an attack against you, then you are reading, into it , I just really wanted know, sorry that I just wanted to be informed, and I will add there was a bit of indignation when I typed it. Ok, Wally why do you seem to want to demean people when you don’t agree with something that said? And if you don’t understand something that I or anyone else has said, JUST ask, “what did you mean by that” And if you question everything, why can’t we? I have learned a lot by this topic. But I would like you to ask yourself, why that is WALLY….I really think that you are read way more in my post then what is there PS I really want to say really mean and nasty things to you and about you But that is exactly what I am talking about raising above See Wally if I can I really think we ALL can!! Thu, 14 Dec 2006 07:28:55 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#72c77afe-e08e-4e88-88f6-e91d70f733ec Dominic G 2006-12-14T07:28:55Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#6016c673-46b0-4c61-be47-dcb49125124b "I never, ever made any comment to the effect that documents published more than XX years ago about HIV/AIDS being garbage." My bad. I looked it up and it was Jake that said that. --- Gos Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:21:00 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#6016c673-46b0-4c61-be47-dcb49125124b Gos 2006-12-14T06:21:00Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#7f7f2b5c-1c0f-4985-aa2d-dca5db6efa2f Moore wrote: “Nancy Padian’s paper: Nancy Padian of UCSF publishes a classic study on heterosexual HIV transmission in 1997. ... AIDS denialists though conclude that the Padian paper proves that HIV is not heterosexually transmitted and contradicts the author’s own conclusions and to the social science literature. ... Nancy Padian is here today, or said she was going to be here today, and she can speak to this — she’s here — and she can speak to this, how her own paper is being abused and twisted.” This year, the following correspondence was conducted with Professor Padian: “As far as I can judge, your data does not prove that HIV is heterosexually transmitted. Am I wrong in my interpretation? If so, would you please give me some details why I am wrong.” Professor Padian’s response was: “Yes you are wrong. Read the papers. The discussion in very thorough in each.” The follow up correspondence was: “In your publications, you repeatedly pointed out that the data from cross-sectional studies are not reliable. In your 1997 prospective study you "observed no seroconversions...". In your discussion, you also pointed out that "No transmission occurred among the 25 percent of couples who did not use condoms consistently at their last follow-up nor among the 47 couples who intermittently practiced unsafe sex during the entire duration of follow-up." This is the information which led me to come to the conclusion which you have stated is wrong. I would be grateful if you would tell me what information I am missing.” Professor Padian did not respond. The Perth group: This sequence of events is typical of “HIV” experts. When they are asked initial questions regarding their research, they respond in a patronising manner. Naturally, their response leads to more questions where we “dig deeper”. Faced with such questions they refuse to respond. It is interesting to note that Professor Padian did not talk on “how her own paper is being abused and twisted”. She said that “scientists need to be trained as to their responsibility to journalists and their responsibility to make their views known through the public venues as well as scientific venues. …we’re working in an anti-science era, and we have our role to play.” Surely, scientists must be aware of their responsibility to journalists but above all as Howard Temin pointed out ‘‘when an experiment is challenged no matter who it is challenged by, it’s your responsibility to check. That is an ironclad rule of science, that when you publish something you are responsible for it. . .even the most senior professor, if challenged by the lowliest technician or graduate student, is required to treat them seriously and consider their criticisms. It is one of the most fundamental aspects of science’’ (emphasis in original).72 http://www.rethinkingaids.com/Challenges/Moore-Perth.html Thu, 14 Dec 2006 06:16:12 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#7f7f2b5c-1c0f-4985-aa2d-dca5db6efa2f Tomás 2006-12-14T06:16:12Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#24ed2691-063e-4abb-ae7e-16bd69efe367 Good Job Terry. http://www.immunizationinfo.org/parents/howVaccines_work.cfm Thu, 14 Dec 2006 01:17:24 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#24ed2691-063e-4abb-ae7e-16bd69efe367 Tomás 2006-12-14T01:17:24Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#9f8c64e5-2329-4062-900e-e0d4eb440741 (I don't doubt you view him as stupid for doing this - but you don't know him - I do.) He's a good young man. I can't say he is Stupid or anyone for that matter because he may not be aware or know what he is getting into.. meaning "the Other Side of AIDS" information. This Angers me because so many gay men are Caught up in this Religiously.. Attending HIV Clinics Constantly~ Counting Tcells~ Assuming Viral Loads~ Taking TOXIC Poisons that Cause More Harm than Good and even their AIDS Death~ Attending HIV Support Groups that talk about their "Side Effects" and the Negative Aspects and the Illusionary HIV is causing all of it~ By the Time People who feel that they need all of these Church requirements and it filters through the Dissident Perspective ~ It's too Late. There is No Antidote the Damage is Done. Anyways,.... Even though things get a little heated here sometimes - I so much appreciate what each person has to say. No exceptions. Everyone counts. Lucian Lucian i've Seen the Inside of the Woodshed many times..it's not all that bad in there. Take care Tomás MySpace.Com/HIVisaLIE Thu, 14 Dec 2006 01:05:47 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#9f8c64e5-2329-4062-900e-e0d4eb440741 Tomás 2006-12-14T01:05:47Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#d8bb592f-2289-47f7-a557-3c12094cf4ba Thank you for addressing my post, Tomas. Until I returned to Tribe and started catching up on the threads here recently, I didn't even know that some people feel the way you do about hiv and Aids. I didn't mean to be naive, I just didn't know. Now however, I listen to your words, feel your emotions and consider everything you (and others) save said here. My perspective is different. That's all. As I've said: I've already lost my brother to this disease. Now I have hiv and I am determined to remain a "healthy" man. The meds are not fun to take. I had a pretty bad reaction to severial of them. I had to experiment until I found the right 2 that make up my cocktail. It has produced very good results. Therefore I am of the mindset that hiv drugs work. But they are far from perfect. I'm on the verge of switching one of them for a newer drug in hopes that the side effects will be non-existant. I won't know until I try. Never-the-less, I'm willing to deal with it over the possibility of eventual death if I don't take meds. Again, I witnessed my younger brother die a horrific death. I will not put my parents through that. And then regarding my roommate and his choice to participate in clinical trials at NIH,...that was entirely his doing. I personally would not have. They subject him to some pretty intense and presumeably dangerous tests. But he feels that if the end result produces said vaccine resulting in saving lives, he thinks it's worth it. Personally, I think he's very brave. (I don't doubt you view him as stupid for doing this - but you don't know him - I do.) He's a good young man. Anyways,.... Even though things get a little heated here sometimes - I so much appreciate what each person has to say. No exceptions. Everyone counts. Lucian Thu, 14 Dec 2006 00:20:58 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#d8bb592f-2289-47f7-a557-3c12094cf4ba Lucian 2006-12-14T00:20:58Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8e591687-9e0f-4421-b544-747e8e4aee93 Terry, you are absolutely correct. And he knows this. When he gets home from work this evening, I will ask him permission to print what ever he has to say about your questions. Thanks for your interest. :-) Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:53:08 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8e591687-9e0f-4421-b544-747e8e4aee93 Lucian 2006-12-13T23:53:08Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#4136c1fa-ca70-4d04-9bfc-15e1c1593338 Oh come on now, Tomas. None of this is a "wasting of your precious time here." Nor for the rest of us. Otherwise, who is it you think you are posting for? ________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Oh No? I am Still Waiting for and ANSWER to this: 2006 - 2:17 AM Hey Mad, While reading through this String of "Misinformation" and Illusion from EVERY Living Soul Here My Question to you is what Constitutes a ..................................................."STATUS"? A Combined total of the Following? *A Dubious Non Specific Positive Antibody test~ *A Non Specific T-cell Count~ * A Viral Load of Non Specific Cellular Debris~ * A Gender Specific Viral Infection~ IF this Is what Contitutes a so-called HIV $tatus then it's all in Vain, Phillip also Mentioned that Jake was Providing Misinformation about PC and KS being Specifically Opportunistic Infections what He Failed to also say is that so-called HIV Negative People can get all of the Opportunistic Infections Labeled and Defined as AID$. One More Thing I'ts Interesting the LA Gay Lesbian Center says HIV is a "Gay Disease" and at Another Forum I am dealing with some Quacks that CLAIM AIDS is a "Black Disease"... I don't think the AID$ Cult can get their THEORIES Straight. Sincerely Tomás ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ AT This Point Lucian it doesn't matter who answers my Original Question...and I will assume my posts are pointless perhaps I need one of those BS Degrees that Wally has ..I noticed I can get one online then I can build up my Fan Club here. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ """"I appreciate how hard Wally is trying to recompose the way he presents himself. I was concerned he was starting to lose it there for a moment the other day. Even Gos, seems to be more civil in his responses. So do you think you could tone down your rhetoric just a bit here, Tomas? """"" I don't Appreciate Professor Wally at all and I don't Trust him as far as I can Spit...To discredit other people with "Degrees" and Scientific Backgrounds is Wrong. Gos and I Are two different people and we're Definitely Not "Sock Puppets' as was accused earlier..I Appreciate Gos whom even busted me on my ranting...as far as toning down I don't appreciate you Lucian when I have tried to come to a "humble" point in these strings and as always that's ignored. __________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I read each posting with tremendous fancination. That's a good thing...Kudos ______________________________________________________________________________________________________ I haven't even gotten around to mentioning that I physically live 3 blocks away from the FDA here in Rockville, Maryland, where most of the hiv med's have to be approved before being released. Furthermore, my other roommate, is one of the so-called human guinea pigs that the hiv Vaccine is being tested on. Yes, we also live less than 2 miles from NIH, which is where he goes every week. So far, so good. But sometimes he comes home pretty sick from the tests they administer to him. He does this very willingly. He doesn't have to. But he volunteered. I can assure you, he doesn't consider it a waste of his time. The Dissident Movement is World wide not a few blocks away from the FDA or NIH so telling me this means nothing to me. I am Sorry your roommate is the VICTIM in all of this. __________________________________________________________________________________________________ "ALL OF MY HATE CANNOT BE FOUND ~ KORN" MySpace.com/HIVisaLIE Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:22:09 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#4136c1fa-ca70-4d04-9bfc-15e1c1593338 Tomás 2006-12-13T23:22:09Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#099e9d00-4440-4cbd-9722-92bb366a18f4 Lucian, if your friend is going through the hiv-vaccine trials, then I quote myself again with soundbytes, and ask anyone if they see the purpose of taking an hiv-vaccine, considering: "Like all the shots (immunizations) we’re given, are really said to be the actual virus or germ, shot into our bodies, so that our bodies can build up it’s own immunity against said virus. What’s the use in giving someone the hiv-vaccine, if that vaccine, is to assist the body in creating hiv-antibodies? In other words; if a person is given the hiv-vaccine, and then go to his or her physician to be tested (some time down the road), then that person will surely show up positive because, they’ve been give the hiv-vaccine, which intent is to, create, hiv-antibodies in the body, to protect from the very thing we are told is harmful through sex." "Then I ask, if a person is to receive an hiv-vaccine, then that means, that hiv had have to have been isolated and purified in order to create a vaccine from it." "People are under the impression that once (or if) they take the hiv-vaccine, then they are protected from catching hiv, but that is very true because if you inject the actual virus in a person, then yes, that person will create hiv-antibodies. So how is it possible, to pass on those very same‘antibodies’ to another person through sexual intercourse?" Lucian, is your friend aware that he's actually given the so-call hiv itself, in order for his body to create an immunity for it, or against it? I also ask; how can there be an hiv-vaccine when the culprit itself, has not been properly isolated and purified in order to make a vaccination from it? What is this hiv-vaccine made of? What are the components of this vaccine if said active ingredient hiv has not been purified in order to create such vaccine? I think your friend should ask the people these question who are administering the said hiv-vaccine. Terry Wed, 13 Dec 2006 23:02:48 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#099e9d00-4440-4cbd-9722-92bb366a18f4 TerryTown 2006-12-13T23:02:48Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#1fe51850-7dd5-4fce-9ac2-f70480b2092b "I have permanent bronchial damage due to an allergic reaction to rofecoxib which was prescribed to me and which has left me with chronic asthma. I told them I was having an honest-to-goodness respiratory allergic reaction to the drug and they ignored me for months...until I ended up in the hospital." This is the scary thing about going to our health care physicians these days. I think the USA is the only country where it uses its own citizens as lab animals. This is also frightening because like my blog about the woman (The Harper's article) that was nearly falling apart from the meds she was told to take, the doctor ignored all the signals and insisted that she remain so the meds. Doctors making shading deals with the pharma companies and the citizens (escpecially in the USA) are suffering from the malpratice. Where you able to bring up a law suit against the makers of these drugs and the carelessness of the physicians involved? But now that I think of it, the pharma lobbyist may have gotten our congress to have people waive their rights if any severe side effects would take place after taking their drugs. Terry Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:43:51 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#1fe51850-7dd5-4fce-9ac2-f70480b2092b TerryTown 2006-12-13T22:43:51Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#c7d6cc17-b54c-461d-af32-7faef778c06e A! I t's D rugs $ tupid.................... Wed, 13 Dec 2006 22:18:43 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#c7d6cc17-b54c-461d-af32-7faef778c06e Tomás 2006-12-13T22:18:43Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#545e3718-5d79-4d7e-bd15-b49fa1c8bae9 It is hard enough to understand people in the real world without adding something like two monitors and two keyboards as intermediaries. In spite of my passion for writing, I still fail to communicate on a regular basis. Since the heart of actual "communication" is "what you get back" from someone, I find myself failing in that department as well on a basis that I find to be annoyingly "to regular." When I see it (usually about nine steps too late) I try to put myself on the sideline (time-out) until the other person has a chance to help me understand my misunderstanding(s). It almost always works out, but nine steps too late means that people's feelings have been strained. My biggest problem is that I take what people say literally, and at face-value. So each sentence has a meaning, and the meanings get read in order, and then I believe that I've understood what they've said (because words mean things, and I _do_ words well enough). I can't stay angry for very long at all, and I refuse to go to bed while I am angry. Last night (this morning) I went to bed at 03:30'ish in the morning because it took me a while to cool down. My temper in my "previous life" was the stuff of legends, but at that time in my life and that time in the Coast Guard, that worked, even though it took its toll on me, personally. The end result is that I don't hold grudges, either. I just don't have that kind of energy to waste on hatred or grudges. But! There is a psycho-physical aspect that everyone deserves to know about. I once fell 45-feet and crushed pretty much everything on my right side from my knee to my wrist and forearm to my ribs and finishing it all of was a fractured skull. I spent two years _in_ the hospital learning how to move my right hand from scratch. My right hand has been completely reconstructed from hip bone and metal in seven different reconstructive surgeries. I live with some serious full-body chronic pain (_especially_ my right wrist/forearm/neck/head). I don't take pain-killers because the anti-seizure meds are hard enough to deal with. I try to manage my pain by managing my sleep, but pain and sleep for me run in nasty little cycles. So, I guess what I'm really saying here is that I get pretty farging cranky and the rest of the world not only can't understand it, they don't know how to deal with it. I'm not trying to say that everyone should give me a break, I'm just saying that I get really, really cranky in a cyclic fashion, and you'll see it, you've seen it, but I always manage to bring things back down again. Sometimes it's worse than others (including dizziness, nausea, blah, blah, tele-blah). I'd like to apologize in advance, but what I really end up doing is trying to explain where my thoughts are and then work out any problems and apologies as necessary. It's not a great system, but I've managed to make it work for a while now, and I just want you all to know up front. In the past, some folks have seen fit to take this info and run with it, but the benefits of letting people know outweigh the idiocy of the very few. Meanwhile, I see that I have a full-slate of replies pending. Wed, 13 Dec 2006 21:39:53 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#545e3718-5d79-4d7e-bd15-b49fa1c8bae9 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T21:39:53Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#46b43022-ddd3-44d6-a740-e26b51e4da42 Oh come on now, Tomas. None of this is a "wasting of your precious time here." Nor for the rest of us. Otherwise, who is it you think you are posting for? I appreciate how hard Wally is trying to recompose the way he presents himself. I was concerned he was starting to lose it there for a moment the other day. Even Gos, seems to be more civil in his responses. So do you think you could tone down your rhetoric just a bit here, Tomas? I read each posting with tremendous fancination. I haven't even gotten around to mentioning that I physically live 3 blocks away from the FDA here in Rockville, Maryland, where most of the hiv med's have to be approved before being released. Furthermore, my other roommate, is one of the so-called human guinea pigs that the hiv Vaccine is being tested on. Yes, we also live less than 2 miles from NIH, which is where he goes every week. So far, so good. But sometimes he comes home pretty sick from the tests they administer to him. He does this very willingly. He doesn't have to. But he volunteered. I can assure you, he doesn't consider it a waste of his time. Lucian Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:59:41 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#46b43022-ddd3-44d6-a740-e26b51e4da42 Lucian 2006-12-13T20:59:41Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#18ebb8cb-73ee-4248-af9b-176e39c368d7 MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU... Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:57:05 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#18ebb8cb-73ee-4248-af9b-176e39c368d7 Tomás 2006-12-13T20:57:05Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8a47c773-d799-45f7-985a-f8e9a5306a13 I said QUOTE" "I was a so-called "HIV Patient " for 6 Years and seen all of the Mainstream Corruption with my own eyes.." This Is the Problem with most people they have been brainwashed with "Terminology" I never said I was an "AIDS PATIENT" you subconsciously used AIDS with HIV Interchangeably when you know its wrong, I have Never had an AIDS Diagnosis but your Mind is Programmed to think other wise. I am Not sure why you brought up a racial analogy to TRY to prove your Point but as I made several comments in YOUR previous thread on several topics I pointed out that while I go by Tomás instead of Thomas and I appear to many people as hispanic descent. I have been called a "SPIC" and I am White what do I gain from underminding people. If My Testimony doesn't appeal to you then that's your Perogative however on a personal level this can be selfish of you since I am a Human being. http://blog.360.yahoo.com/blog-1l77NUQlKPNgxQYVFYw-?cq=1 Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:45:20 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8a47c773-d799-45f7-985a-f8e9a5306a13 Tomás 2006-12-13T20:45:20Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#a88cfc4d-9b74-43d0-9f62-e77b621a2832 I told you that until you apologize to Jake for telling him he should poison himself I will not be replying to you. Calling me a liar in the face of everything you have said and done only reinforces my position, and now you owe me an apology. It's up to you... Either apologize for what was clearly a death-wish upon someone and let's start some dialogue with some give-and-take to it, or remain ignored. Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:22:10 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#a88cfc4d-9b74-43d0-9f62-e77b621a2832 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T20:22:10Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#34f3cef3-f1b4-417b-8a11-946ab9eaf0f5 Dominic, if I have misunderstood your intent in the following two posts, then there is much between us that can only be cleared up by you telling me what you meant, and me shutting up and listening... http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#15c6dc04-1bf2-4dea-b7b0-f19b34c1dcf1 http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/e4725ff4-14fb-4579-a79c-496bbe0e8a69#4647d25c-a07f-43e1-8054-50e110d38d1d Until such time as I can understand where you are coming from, I am placing myself on time-out in regards to you. I truly believe you are a decent guy. The problem is (as far as I can tell) is how I'm comprehending those two posts and how what you are saying isn't jiving with that comprehension. I mean, in light of the conflicting communication here (what you said, then what I thought you said relayed back to you, and then your reaction to that coming back to me) there appears to be a disconnect between what you mean and how I read you. If I'm making sense at all. I'm not going to say another word to you until such time as you decide you've had enough time to digest the entire debacle and explain to me where I've misunderstood those two posts. Take all the time you want -- I'm in no hurry, and I'm certainly not angry. Frustrated, yes, but definitely not angry. Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:16:45 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#34f3cef3-f1b4-417b-8a11-946ab9eaf0f5 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T20:16:45Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#56d23a17-f84a-46ad-881f-41bc27701f46 This part Two series of "Star Wars" episode 101 HIV and Darth Vader is causing dark circles under my eyes and im Wasting my precious time here.. you said : "I'll tell you what, Raven, Until Tomas made all manner of assumptions about my stance and then proceded (without ever having asked me a question...and, mind you, having publicly set his beliefs in stone), I was willing to be "nice." I reserve the right to rise to the occasion when pushed. " I think denial is one thing but LYING is another! In the ORIGINAL THREAD that mad Kash Jack Started I asked a Question TO HIM and I never Got an answer. You Jumped beyond Phillip and Began your Criticism as a Scientist to belittle OTHER Scientists in your posts. here is my Question to you Wally in the OTHER THREAD: "December 8, 2006 - 7:22 PM Wally why is that we are ignorant and you aren't? Are you a Scientist or Something? Do you have Credentials? Are you Afilliated with the CDC,NIH,WHO,UNAIDS, Are You independant in HIV and AID$ Research? Why Should we Trust you? " "Then, Gos showed up, and instead of asking me what it is that I believe or what my stand on any of the issues is he jumped right in and never turned down the opportunity to impugn and malign me. Not a single farging question about WHAT I BELIEVE. But, it's all Ok with you and everyone who tacitly approves with their silence... " Never Mind the Fact that Your Agenda is to eat ANYONE who QUESTIONS HIV as Midnight Snacks and I think Somewhere you posted your ANTI-DIssident Propaganda so if the Shoe fits... "Then, Dominic (whom I believe is a nice guy) comes off as if this is some sort of four-way penis-envy contest. Sorry, his take is more in-tune with his feelings and his apparent tendency to dislike/shy-away-from any conflict whatsoever. The only "contest" that has ever existed is in the minds of Tomas and Gos, and they play it to the hilt. You can go to any "anti-HIV" Website and see their exact schtick and the recommended references they use, and everything else that they stand for...all in print and ready-for-copy-and-pasting into a "discussion." Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 37,200,000 for HIV/AIDS. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2006-41,RNWE:en&q=HIV%2fAIDS Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 76,000,000 for HIV http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=RNWE%2CRNWE%3A2006-41%2CRNWE%3Aen&q=HIV&btnG=Search Personalized Results 1 - 10 of about 156,000,000 for AIDS http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=RNWE%2CRNWE%3A2006-41%2CRNWE%3Aen&q=AIDS&btnG=Search Here is one for you Wally! "Researchers studying the rapid spread of HIV/AIDS in one region of Kenya were puzzled when risky sexual behaviour was not in itself sufficient to explain the rate of transmission." http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200612/s1807729.htm Factors Known to Cause False-Positive HIV Antibody Test Results Anti-carbohydrate antibodies (52, 19, 13) Naturally-occurring antibodies (5, 19) Passive immunization: receipt of gamma globulin or immune globulin (as prophylaxis against infection which contains antibodies)(18, 26, 60, 4, 22, 42, 43, 13) Leprosy (2, 25) Tuberculosis (25) Mycobacterium avium (25) Systemic lupus erythematosus (15, 23) Renal (kidney) failure (48, 23, 13) Hemodialysis/renal failure (56, 16, 41, 10, 49) Alpha interferon therapy in hemodialysis patients (54) Flu (36) Flu vaccination (30, 11, 3, 20, 13, 43) Herpes simplex I (27) Herpes simplex II (11) Upper respiratory tract infection (cold or flu)(11) Recent viral infection or exposure to viral vaccines (11) Pregnancy in multiparous women (58, 53, 13, 43, 36) Malaria (6, 12) things that make ya go hmmmmmmmmm..... High levels of circulating immune complexes (6, 33) Hypergammaglobulinemia (high levels of antibodies) (40, 33) False positives on other tests, including RPR (rapid plasma reagent) test for syphilis (17, 48, 33, 10, 49) Rheumatoid arthritis (36) Hepatitis B vaccination (28, 21, 40, 43) Tetanus vaccination (40) Organ transplantation (1, 36) Renal transplantation (35, 9, 48, 13, 56) Anti-lymphocyte antibodies (56, 31) Anti-collagen antibodies (found in gay men, haemophiliacs, Africans of both sexes and people with leprosy)(31) Serum-positive for rheumatoid factor, antinuclear antibody (both found in rheumatoid arthritis and other autoantibodies)(14, 62, 53) Autoimmune diseases (44, 29, 10, 40, 49, 43): Systemic lupus erythematosus, scleroderma, connective tissue disease, dermatomyositis Acute viral infections, DNA viral infections (59, 48, 43, 53, 40, 13) Malignant neoplasms (cancers)(40) Alcoholic hepatitis/alcoholic liver disease (32, 48, 40,10,13, 49, 43, 53) Primary sclerosing cholangitis (48, 53) Hepatitis (54) "Sticky" blood (in Africans) (38, 34, 40) Antibodies with a high affinity for polystyrene (used in the test kits)(62, 40, 3) Blood transfusions, multiple blood transfusions (63, 36,13, 49, 43, 41) Multiple myeloma (10, 43, 53) HLA antibodies (to Class I and II leukocyte antigens)(7, 46, 63, 48, 10, 13, 49, 43, 53) Anti-smooth muscle antibody (48) Anti-parietal cell antibody (48) Anti-hepatitis A IgM (antibody)(48) Anti-Hbc IgM (48) Administration of human immunoglobulin preparations pooled before 1985 (10) Haemophilia (10, 49) Haematologic malignant disorders/lymphoma (43, 53, 9, 48, 13) Primary biliary cirrhosis (43, 53, 13, 48) Stevens-Johnson syndrome9, (48, 13) Q-fever with associated hepatitis (61) Heat-treated specimens (51, 57, 24, 49, 48) Lipemic serum (blood with high levels of fat or lipids)(49) Haemolyzed serum (blood where haemoglobin is separated from the red cells)(49) Hyperbilirubinemia (10, 13) Globulins produced during polyclonal gammopathies (which are seen in AIDS risk groups)(10, 13, 48) Healthy individuals as a result of poorly-understood cross-reactions (10) Normal human ribonucleoproteins (48,13) Other retroviruses (8, 55, 14, 48, 13) Anti-mitochondrial antibodies (48, 13) Anti-nuclear antibodies (48, 13, 53) Anti-microsomal antibodies (34) T-cell leukocyte antigen antibodies (48, 13) Proteins on the filter paper (13) Epstein-Barr virus (37) Visceral leishmaniasis (45) Receptive anal sex (39, 64) "Except, they have yet to actually discuss the virus itself. A scientific discovery of the means to test for the ACTUAL RNA of the HIV virus is being ignored at present. Twice-mentioned, and twice-ignored. The "discussion" that Gos says he partook of regarding the nature of the HIV virus was actually someone else's words (without quotation marks and without citation), and was merely a point-piece, and not dialogue at all. Yet, Dominic thinks four (as-yet-unnamed) people are involved in a penis contest..." Perhaps you Should be Reported to your Colleagues? Bashing other Scientists in your Sincere efforts to maintain some Apologia against People who were Patients of the HIV Industry. "I can clearly see that Dominic is having problems with the discussion, but his demand that everyone just shut up and move on is utterly ridiculous. It is further made almost sickeningly wrong-headed by his assertion that such a discussion is disrespectful of those who have died from HIV." Those of us that have been Emailed and Quietly asked to be "humble" and not resort to persoanl attacks and have been IGNORED and JAKE is praised above and beyond his ability to bring anything solid to this debate...or discussion. "So, now you know where I am coming from. If Dominic doesn't like it, he can be honest and say that he doesn't like it. If Dominic doesn't want to read it, he doesn't have to attempt to demean those who feel discussing it is VERY IMPORTANT if we are to honor the memories of those who have died. " Wally you are a Scientist...You shouldn't be acting the way you do regardless. "It isn't "dissidents" who are being lambasted for their viewpoints...the two alleged "dissidents" actually already have their minds made up (no names, but their initials are "Tomas" and "Gos") and those two alleged "dissidents" malign and denigrate anyone who disagrees with or even questions them, and they then throw up one red herring after one straw man argument after another as part of their "discussion." I've seen it a thousand times if I've seen it once. They are cookie-cutter automatons who all say EXACTLY the same things, post EXACTLY the same tripe, and who all claim to be "dissidents," when the are in fact under-educated sheeple who have bought into an anti-science religion and don't understand why everyone else can't make the same leap-of-faith that they have. Yes, they are religious zealots against any science that even remotely says that HIV may exist or that HIV may cause AIDS. " Im Against Fred Phelps, NARTH,PATH,Christian Theologians,The AID$ Industry,The LA Gay and Lesbian Center,HIV/AIDS Poison Manufacturers and YOU ...I believe Gay Men are Welcome on Planet Earth,Should Be allowed to marry and NOT Live in Fear! so The Religious Zealots that you speak of are in your camp Professor Wally. "If you want self-righteous, go no farther than Tomas or Gos... " Amen. "As for me, I'm a scientist, and I question EVERYTHING, every day...but even YOU didn't ask anyone what they think...not you, not Dominic, not Terry, not Tomas, not Gos, not, not, not... Not a single farging question...oh, buy hey, it's a "discussion." ::feh:: Give me a break... " Perhaps Scientists should debate Scientists.. http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/326/7387/495 http://www.rethinking.org/bmj/BMJ-Date-Descending.html Catcha Later Professor Wally..BTW I received Correspondence from David Crowe,Roberto Giraldo and Michael P Wright he confirmed your yahoo rantings of the past however the irony of his response is the same thing I said YOU ARE A LIAR! and even more funny Quote: "a Parrot" .................LOL. Wed, 13 Dec 2006 20:14:27 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#56d23a17-f84a-46ad-881f-41bc27701f46 Tomás 2006-12-13T20:14:27Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#c8de7483-359a-43df-b3da-fb00fd0ac569 Wally wrote: "I consider the pharmacopious companies to be a part of that unchecked, unregulated capitalist experiment on American citizens (and the world). I have permanent bronchial damage due to an allergic reaction to rofecoxib which was prescribed to me and which has left me with chronic asthma. I told them I was having an honest-to-goodness respiratory allergic reaction to the drug and they ignored me for months...until I ended up in the hospital. I had the side-effect highlighted and my friend handed it to the doctor. They finally listened to that. Then they told me I needed albuterol, but after only three or four days on albuterol I fell down on the ground with my heart blowing up in my chest and every vein in my neck and head on fire and I couldn't breathe at all. It took over seven people two and one-half hours to get my heart rate below 210. I'm allergic to albuterol. You'll recognize rofecoxib when I tell you it is Vioxx. There are more instances, but this is the basic outline." I have a similar tale. By the time I was 30, I had diseases of men and women twice my age, such as osteoporosis, arthritis, a prostate the size of a grapefruit, liver toxicity, plus a bunch of other stuff that isn't necessarily considered diseases of advancing age, but which were nonetheless problematic, such as accelerated tooth decay and athsma. Most of it was caused (and the remainder was exacerbated) by the use of drugs like prednisone, Prilosec, Epivir, Viramune, and Zerit. Since I quit taking all of these meds, most of these symptoms have vanished (though the arthritis and athsma never fully went away, I have much less problem with it now that I no longer take drugs that exacerbate it.) Given that neither of us trusts what you call the "pharmacopious" companies, just what industry do you think it is that manufactures and markets HIV tests? You know and I know that the biomedical industry has purchased the FDA lock, stock, and barrel, in order to gain approval for drugs whose safety and/or effectiveness was (to put it at its sweetest) not nearly so good as the corporate spokespeople said it was. You know and I know that this all started in 1987, when approval for AZT was streamlined, under the pretext that AIDS was simply too scary to wait for the gears of science to slowly grind -- we had to get this drug on the market NOW. But despite the fact that we both know that corporate spokespersons in the biomedical industry lie through their teeth while their sock puppets at the FDA bob their heads in agreement, you expect me to believe that they ONLY lie about drugs (but of course, not HIV drugs -- they tell the truth about those) -- they NEVER lie about the tests they manufacture. Drugs which are unsafe can kill -- tests which are inaccurate or meaningless only inconvenience people. You honestly expect me to believe that they'll lie about drugs, but not about tests? --- Gos Wed, 13 Dec 2006 19:17:53 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#c8de7483-359a-43df-b3da-fb00fd0ac569 Gos 2006-12-13T19:17:53Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#b8d7d364-c746-47b1-9510-334d407b531d Wally wrote: "Since AIDS is a syndrome, it is prudent for science to question the roles that different operators may or may not play. But just like there are no unequivocal proofs, there are no unequivocal disproofs. It is all still up in the air, and you know that, too." NOW we're getting somewhere Wally, and it's good to see you exposing your intelligence rather than what you've been exposing up until now. And I'll concede to you on that point, Wally -- there are no unequivocal disproofs, and you got me -- I know it well. However, think about this for a second: For 22 years (in which AIDS has been the best-financed disease in history), 100% of all research funds have gone exclusively to research on the viral model, and not a dime to alternative hypotheses. There being no unequivocal proofs, if science is to discover the secrets of this dread disease, wouldn't it pay to broaden our investigation of it a bit? Another thing dissidents have been consistently saying for years is that we (meaning people like Duesberg and Mullis) should get 1% of AIDS research money, to do research on alternative models of AIDS, such as Duesberg's drug hypothesis and Mullis' immune overload model. Would 1% of a multibillion dollar budget be missed? What if Duesberg or Mullis discovered things that no retroviral researcher would have, and lives were spared as a result? Wouldn't that justify the cost? But NOOOO... 100% of all research money MUST be spent on the viral model -- we've been spending billions on it for 22 years, and we still aren't even sure how HIV kills T4 cells, and you want us to give the crumbs from our tables to DISSIDENTS? My good man, we need even MORE money, we certainly can't afford to give up 1% of our budget! Why would a bunch of bureaucrats be so unwilling to part with such a small pert of their budget, so that their critics could research alternative models? Are they perhaps afraid that if they did, they'd lose the other 99% within 5 years? There being no unequivocal proofs or disproofs that either of us can offer, Wally, doesn't the behavior of the orthodoxy in this regard seem just a little bit suspicious -- like maybe they're barking up the wrong tree and they're fully aware of it? If not, what would be the harm in giving dissidents that 1% of the AIDS research budget that we've been calling for? --- Gos Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:55:28 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#b8d7d364-c746-47b1-9510-334d407b531d Gos 2006-12-13T18:55:28Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8563de2a-130d-4ece-925c-c4fb5704761b " Sinn, I think when the condom comes off the right to privacy goes out the window. " ~Mick I couldn't agree more -- there is a shared responsibility for forthrightness at that point that trumps "privacy." And it isn't just HIV. Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:51:36 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8563de2a-130d-4ece-925c-c4fb5704761b $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T18:51:36Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#d4504b7e-879f-45d8-824a-3df970abc354 Saying "i was a so called AIDS patient.......so..... i can question the estabilshment and undermine those who have aids/HIV... "" is like.... "I know five black folk so i can say nigger and make race jokes.........I know 5 SO CALLED black people...heh!" The thread is so entirely lonnnnnnnng and jumps around in circles i'm not sure what question you asked. Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:36:42 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#d4504b7e-879f-45d8-824a-3df970abc354 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T18:36:42Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8bbfb3c3-85f0-4895-a4a6-235e714a898b As someone else wrote, if not for my medicines and my family, I would not have been alive even a year ago. A CD4 count of 85. That is low. CD4 counts must be imaginary, too, eh? How about HIV viral load of 150 000 counts and weighing 140. January 2005. December 2006, fast forward after Sustiva and Combivir: 185 lbs., no detectable viral load, CD4 of about 300 last count...no dementia, only a little short term memory problem. Working for a major national progressive political organization as a researcher/author/editor and finished editing a 700pp scholarly book down to 450pp that is now at the press for a client. NONE of these are SPECIFIC to HIV Infection Including the Diaper causing poisons. Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:35:10 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8bbfb3c3-85f0-4895-a4a6-235e714a898b Tomás 2006-12-13T18:35:10Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#adacc9f6-32e3-4289-a731-343b16296b62 >>He opened up a "Pandora's Box" of both rudeness and insensitivity toward persons who have AIDS and I am just choking the little fuck with it. I'm just quoting Jake from the previous thread here because i REFUSE to engage in making the first thread any longer, here. First of all choking anyone is a crime and against the law in most states if not all...Second and most Importantly a Part II Series of "the Saga goes on" is an EXTENTION of the Original. Thirdly There were a BUNCH OF US stooping to the same level of attacks which I ADMITTED. By the way I like how you mainstreamers adopt language from each other and as Jake adopted the "Pandora's Box" from the article I posted BEFORE this thread "the empire strikes back". Rodney Richards "The Hidden facts and dangers of HIV tests" The sentiments above are absolutely regarding a certain poster. I took some time to go through almost every post in the first thread and Tomas didn't make a lick of sense and instead managed to turn a world wide pandemic into........................ a game........a video one at that. Actually Mad Jack Kash I Asked a Question SPECIFICALLY to you that STILL has never been answered from anyone here dissident or non-dissident and your ORIGINAL THREAD started by you and Contrary to Popular Oppinon says Quote: "I am Interested in seeing the Responses to this" and as far as the "world wide pandemic" that you claim I am NOT Convinced that there is one. I do believe however there is an "Epidemic" of Worthless and Useless Testing for HIV that Creates an Illusion of a Pandemic,Fear and Hysteria world wide. Never Mind all of the Pointless posts by Jake he is Dismissed as a "Saint". Does anyone take anything seriously, especially the lives of other people who are coping with HIV/AIDS. I was a so-called HIV Patient for 6 Years and seen all of the Mainstream Corruption with my own eyes.. My Medical Records remain a Constant reminder of this Corruption. I do care more than you can imagine .. this issue has become apart of my life and I so passionately want to help innocent people from being Murdered by Toxic Drugs ESPECIALLY in Africa. I would venture to say the invention of HIV meds has distorted the whole issue and resulted in troubling phemon of those who shrug off the notions that HIV IS deadly. I Cringe at the thought of calling them "HIV Meds" Because I know very well that they are Poisons far being the abilities of a Retrovirus. With that these people forget that drugs, the rare cases of those who are "ïmmuned" are beacons of light in the face of such dark tragedy... The Drugs Destroy everything that makes a human being a "Human Being". Their DNA. Their Immune System. the core of that dark tragedy existing in Africa and third world countries. Those who dream up this arm chair science bullshit don't give a shit about those countries or even what going on here at home but fool themse;lves into believing they are some brand of activist when they are furthest from it. No One is dreaming anything..Facts are Facts and thank God for MBEKI. Undoing what has been done to provide sufficient data to help people avoid this disease and possibly cure it.. Ya think possibly that "Gallo" and "the Cure" is OLD NEWS... Some of the stuff provided is so dangerous in fact that it could, would and should be used by some republicrat to regulate an immunization or even cure if it ever came to that. You have an Oppinion...you are indeed entitled to it..... a Vaccine if produced would be a massive world wide Iatrogenocide. To be perfectly honest, denialist, who claim AIDS as a myth of any variety are passe gay liberations who probably wanna continue fucking in the bathhouses on meth and don't care about the community....... Those who espouse to such oppinion are to be questioned at every opportunity...man shall not lie with mankind,(As with womankind) dogmatics,denialists,ignorists,NARTHist,propagandists,ban the gay marriage cliche to keep "Levitical HIV Infected sodomites" to this Mindset... Lets keep them in bathhouses, on rec drugs and on DNA Chain Terminators...never mind HIV is a Gay Disease Mad Jack Kash own it end it! or even believe in it or now it's meaning. Far more respectable work is being done now. Denialist hopefully will stay on the bandwagon of freakish counterculture cults without any real purpose other than to shout the sky is red when it's obviously blue just because the word red exist and it's different. gak. using "The Martian Argument" to say Aliens exist is no different than your red and blue sky phenomenon. bark up any tree you wish and live in your fantasy world bro! Tomás MySpace.com/HIVisaLIE Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:24:53 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#adacc9f6-32e3-4289-a731-343b16296b62 Tomás 2006-12-13T18:24:53Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#efeeb571-1deb-4eff-aae3-fefedb4d1557 Sinn, I think when the condom comes off the right to privacy goes out the window. "i feel that someone else's HIV-status is really none of my business. (whatever happened to their right to privacy?)" Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:20:15 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#efeeb571-1deb-4eff-aae3-fefedb4d1557 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T14:20:15Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#486694b3-5684-4cfb-869f-83935acf2b4c I personally loathe KKKorporate AmeriKKKa, and I consider the pharmacopious companies to be a part of that unchecked, unregulated capitalist experiment on American citizens (and the world). I have permanent bronchial damage due to an allergic reaction to rofecoxib which was prescribed to me and which has left me with chronic asthma. I told them I was having an honest-to-goodness respiratory allergic reaction to the drug and they ignored me for months...until I ended up in the hospital. I had the side-effect highlighted and my friend handed it to the doctor. They finally listened to that. Then they told me I needed albuterol, but after only three or four days on albuterol I fell down on the ground with my heart blowing up in my chest and every vein in my neck and head on fire and I couldn't breathe at all. It took over seven people two and one-half hours to get my heart rate below 210. I'm allergic to albuterol. You'll recognize rofecoxib when I tell you it is Vioxx. There are more instances, but this is the basic outline. My healthcare provider is the VA hospital. Some departments do a fantastic job, but some of the doctors and nurse practitioners are followers of the church of the newest pill. I'll finish reading your post and reply to the rest of it tomorrow some time. I'm in need of sleep. Wed, 13 Dec 2006 11:01:05 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#486694b3-5684-4cfb-869f-83935acf2b4c $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T11:01:05Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#e2e8b79f-8242-402d-8aed-83e11a1f772d I forgot to mention my degree in urban forestry... Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:41:50 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#e2e8b79f-8242-402d-8aed-83e11a1f772d $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T10:41:50Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#aba9e580-b97f-4872-8bc4-542091430e65 Dominic, I did not ask you because two of your posts make it perfectly clear that you don't want people confronting each other on this subject, and I was merely commenting on my observations of two of your posts: http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#15c6dc04-1bf2-4dea-b7b0-f19b34c1dcf1 and... http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/e4725ff4-14fb-4579-a79c-496bbe0e8a69#4647d25c-a07f-43e1-8054-50e110d38d1d They seem clear enough to me... " I am just not as informed as you seem to think that you are, " What do I think I am? How informed do I think I am? I take this as a personal attack on me by you. " SO Wally refresh my memory and tell what me and everyone here what kind of scientist that you are again because I don’t remember and lets face it you have typed a lot here so just save me the time please? " This is above and beyond, Dominic. I consider this to be a personal attack on me, by you...but here you go... I'll only list the formal stuff. I have an AS degree from classes taken at the Virginia School of Medicine, Old Dominion University, Elizabeth City State University, and Sheldon Jackson College. I have an AA degree from South Seattle Community College I have a BS degree (University of Washington) in environmental horticulture, restoration ecology, wetland ecology, integrated pest management (IPM and plant pathology), with a minor in environmental science and resource management. I am currently running my own research on controls for western tent caterpillars (Malacosoma californicum pluviale (Dyar)), and have been heavily involved in this long-term research project for six years. I am currently a student (some more) at the UofW, but I am taking a hiatus. I am an educated and active participant in numerous virology studies at the University of Washington and at the Remington Clinic (also a UofW endeavor). " What I find the saddest of all is Wally you have resorted to passive aggressively attacking me simply because you assume something’s that I didn’t say, " ~Dominic If you feel that I have been attacking you, I am sorry. It has NEVER been my intention to attack you or for you to feel attacked. Please show me the posts where you feel I've attacked you so I know by what means I may have wronged you and can prevent such things in the future. I drew my conclusions from things that you did say (see first two URLs in this post), so let's clear this up completely and without ambiguity. Lastly, I have no need or want to be right...this isn't a game of right and wrong. It isn't a contest where one side is right and one side is wrong, or where right and wrong have to be proven in some way. This HIV/AIDS issue is much bigger and has far more angles to it than a mere "right and wrong." I am under no misconception about the enormity of every little aspect of the topic, and I can tell you it isn't so simplistic as to have a "right" and a "wrong." That would be like saying that everyone actually dies from oxygen depriviation to the brain...the statement is true enough on its face, but it doesn't stand alone as the truth because the reality is much more complicated than "oxygen deprivation." If you believe that my wanting a broader and more open and honest picture of this HIV/AIDS thing to be available to people is me "wanting to be right," then guess who has made the biggest assumption of them all... Not me... Beyond that, I really have no idea what to tell you. Am I worthy enough to talk about a virus? Can I now demand the credentials of everyone else so their worthiness can likewise be adjudicated by the Tribe -- since you specifically said "[...] tell what me and everyone here what kind of scientist that you are [...]" it is apparent that you were speaking for everyone, right? Or no? You tell me, since you forced this upon me... Wed, 13 Dec 2006 10:37:15 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#aba9e580-b97f-4872-8bc4-542091430e65 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T10:37:15Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#902244b6-7890-41b0-b1df-96a5479d0942 oh yeah wally, please if you are going to say thing about me please ask me what I think first OK!! you never asked me what I think or feel about this subject! Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:28:47 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#902244b6-7890-41b0-b1df-96a5479d0942 Dominic G 2006-12-13T09:28:47Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#596fa09a-21ea-403d-9edf-92b87c102619 Wally, Now why would you think that you know me? I not really sure were I every said that I wanted everyone to shut up what I did say was why cant we get pasts this and THIS being that fact y’all seem to be call people names say that they are wrong and that you are right, REALLY I not sure what make you think that you can get away with saying ANYTHING ABOUT ME! To say that I don’t like confrontation, you are so very wrong, I LOVE it! I am just not as informed as you seem to think that you are, So I tend not to say things and just keep repeating myself, in my quest be right and try and make other seem what was the word you used oh yeah Stupid…. SO Wally refresh my memory and tell what me and everyone here what kind of scientist that you are again because I don’t remember and lets face it you have typed a lot here so just save me the time please? What I find the saddest of all is Wally you have resorted to passive aggressively attacking me simply because you assume something’s that I didn’t say, and I am not really why I would be attacked just for asking that we keep it in the realm of adults, and that we don’t go back to nd grade with the name calling. And being DISREPECTEDFUL!!!!!!!! P.s. everyone please stop being nasty to each other and remember that we don’t have to agree only we should respect others opinions! Wed, 13 Dec 2006 09:21:16 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#596fa09a-21ea-403d-9edf-92b87c102619 Dominic G 2006-12-13T09:21:16Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#f751d969-b764-4454-8e7a-360add140bf2 As someone who has formed many, many hypotheses and then had to prove them, I can tell you that very few hypotheses ever see the light of "theory" status. Even then, theories are working models. But, you know these things, also. Of course "hypotheses" change...duh? You KNOW this. If you've even read five research report abstracts, you know it... Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:13:49 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#f751d969-b764-4454-8e7a-360add140bf2 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T08:13:49Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#64a559ca-d2ce-4468-9bb5-8c3804811adc Okay……I see what you mean Wally. True after reading my post, I notice I never did ask you anything about what you think. So yeah…..what do you think and what are your feelings about this ever so changing paradigm? I really would like to know what you (and others)think and what are your views and observations, and how do you feel about the whole gamut. I’ve a feeling you don’t put much trust in Corporations. Also Wally, what do you (and the others) think and feel about what I’ve presented just below. What is your feedback, and if any of you have had that ah-ha moment from, again, another observation and thought I’d had and, from other reliable sources: In regards to someone coming back with a (said) hiv pos results: If she or he tested positive based on the ‘said’ hiv-antibody test. From my understanding, when someone takes the test, it is assumed that they are taking a test that will measure the virus in their ‘blood’ stream. That’s the assumption everyone has (and that’s what I use to think also). What people don’t realize is that when being tested, they are taking a test that’s said to measure hiv ‘antibodies.’ And when the results come back, it means that you now have hiv-antibodies. Did any of you guys know this? –I honestly just found this out about ‘antibodies’ five years ago. And that was from doing research. So that was my ‘ah-ha’ moment. When people hear they are positive, they freak out because of the negative images downloaded in their minds over the decades. An antibody test that comes back positive is a clear indication that the person(s), who’d tested positive now have an immunity against the very thing said to cause or could be harmful (or any other said virus), and you don’t have to worry about catching ‘said’ hiv again because you are now protected. So I ask: what’s up with the meds, which will certainly destroy the good-guys (the hiv positive antibodies) that’s protecting the person? I thought that’s what antibody results are; it lets you know you’ve had ‘something’ and has now created an immunity/protection against the ‘very’ thing. So I ask; how can one infect another person with hiv through sexual transmission, when in fact, that person said to be positive, can’t pass on hiv-antibodies to anyone. It’s impossible. You see, it’s those little things that rise my eyebrow because I know that ‘antibodies’ are the friendly guys (immunity) that protects us from every having to experience, the experience, again: most times. Do any of you know that it is ‘most times’ the actual flu-shots that kills people and not the flu it self if you would catch it by natural means and that, your body already knows how to create antibodies naturally against the flu, or any said virus. But the media will try and tell you that it’s the actual ‘flu’ epidemic itself. Like all the shots (immunizations) we’re given, are really said to be the actual virus or germ, shot into our bodies, so that our bodies can build up it’s own immunity against said virus. Any of you remember taking the polio shots when you where young? Which brings me to another observation. What’s the use in giving someone the hiv-vaccine, if that vaccine, is to assist the body in creating hiv-antibodies? In other words; if a person is given the hiv-vaccine, and then go to his or her physician to be tested (some time down the road), then that person will surely show up positive because, they’ve been give the hiv-vaccine, which intent is to, create, hiv-antibodies in the body, to protect from the very thing we are told is harmful through sex. That person is being vaccinated with the very thing, we’re told to protect yourself from, during sex. Then I ask, if a person is to receive an hiv-vaccine, then that means, that hiv had have to have been isolated and purified in order to create a vaccine from it. So from what I’ve found out about hiv isolation is this: Hysteria, over a viable infectious particle that has never been obtained (isolated) from any human beings or any human fluids, nor purified. Isolation applies that ‘something exist’ before you even get started, and all you’re doing is extracting it, from something that it’s in. From what I understand is that with ‘said’ hiv, it’s always synthesized in a laboratory, but never isolated. Lets not confuse hiv with aids. hiv just happens to be a virus that nobody can actually find in a human being. People are under the impression that once (or if) they take the hiv-vaccine, then they are protected from catching hiv, but that is very true because if you inject the actual virus in a person, then yes, that person will create hiv-antibodies. So how is it possible, to pass on those very same‘antibodies’ to another person through sexual intercourse? You see guys; it’s these things that make me go, hmmmmm. Thanks, Terry Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:13:25 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#64a559ca-d2ce-4468-9bb5-8c3804811adc TerryTown 2006-12-13T08:13:25Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#4b9b48d1-5114-4172-9360-a1b6ad7a4e54 " I'll tell you something else that has consistently changed about the orthodox position on AIDS: The modus operandi of the virus -- how, specifically, it kills CD4 cells. " ~Gos Gos, of course it has (amongst a myriad of other things related to HIV/AIDS). Any unknown process that is under intense research will go through all manner of changes as people (scientists, researchers, etc.) investigate it, as technologies improve, and as science has to take ten steps backwards so it can re-frame a new set of questions when the first set prove to be unprovable, or even meritless. The thing is, to keep the big picture in focus and not make up your mind on each supposed new discovery. It is too early to use unequivocal language when it comes to the HIV virus (yes, I know, the Department of Redundancy Department). You use unequivocal language and it costs you in the credibility department. There are no easy answers, and in some regards (many, most likely) there are no answers at all for the moment. Gallo is old news. Montagnier found something. People are finding things. In fact, now they are finding the actual RNA of HIV... Since AIDS is a syndrome, it is prudent for science to question the roles that different operators may or may not play. But just like there are no unequivocal proofs, there are no unequivocal disproofs. It is all still up in the air, and you know that, too. Wed, 13 Dec 2006 08:10:17 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#4b9b48d1-5114-4172-9360-a1b6ad7a4e54 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T08:10:17Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#0c5b182c-2245-4471-a9f5-0f0bb96fb9d8 " You accuse us of using references from 1984 (guilty as charged,) and maintain that any paper that was published more than 5 years ago about AIDS is garbage. " ~Gos I never, ever made any comment to the effect that documents published more than XX years ago about HIV/AIDS being garbage. Your thoughts, your words. Certain studies and research reports have been improved upon or refuted in the passage of time, but you know that. The scientific community is rocked on a regular basis...it's kind of built-into that thing we call the scientific process...but you know that, too. Wed, 13 Dec 2006 07:59:40 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#0c5b182c-2245-4471-a9f5-0f0bb96fb9d8 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T07:59:40Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#a37ac728-6d1a-4940-83cc-965d7272fa14 I'll tell you something else that has consistently changed about the orthodox position on AIDS: The modus operandi of the virus -- how, specifically, it kills CD4 cells. In the beginning, Gallo spake and declared that HIV killed CD4 cells through a process known as lysis (which retroviruses, by and large, typically don't do -- it's one of the things that sets them apart from all other viruses.) This was quickly disproven, and by 1992, Dr. Luc Montagnier (the discoverer of HIV) was himself publicly questioning the role of HIV in AIDS. Then came the Ho-Shaw article, and the 'viral load' hypothesis was all the rage. However, this most recent article in JAMA is only the final nail in the coffin of the 'viral load' hypothesis -- by this time, it had been repeatedly disproven in various different ways. The most popular hypothesis lately is apoptosis, or programmed cell suicide. Basically, HIV is now the Hannibal Lecter of the microbiological world, able to hypnotize its victims and cause them to hang themselves from the rafters, cut their own faces off and feed them to the dogs at a later date. Once apoptosis is disproven, I'm looking forward to a new hypothesis based on the movie "Saw". Since Gallo first claimed in 1984 to have discovered the virus that causes AIDS, the hypotheses concerning _how_ it kills CD4 cells have been numerous, each replacing a failed predecessor. HIV apologists would have us believe that this is simply the mystery of the virus -- just because after 22 years we still haven't figured out _how_ HIV causes AIDS, that doesn't mean that it doesn't. Pay close attention, though, to the trend -- since 1984, these hypotheses have shifted from direct to indirect means of causation, since just about every possible way that HIV could directly cause CD4 cell death has been exhausted, and several indirect hypotheses have also been shot down. At the current rate, it will be decades, but sooner or later, they will be forced to admit that HIV is 100% innocent of causing CD4 cell depletion. ...Hopefully this happens before governments adopt the power to arrest us and force-feed us medications, as was recently suggested in New York. --- Gos Wed, 13 Dec 2006 04:28:39 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#a37ac728-6d1a-4940-83cc-965d7272fa14 Gos 2006-12-13T04:28:39Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#a1a672f9-4a12-4894-abf5-cb2a82436e41 Wally wrote: "I have posts saved from Yahoo from five and six years ago that were posted by alleged HIV dissidents, and I can tell you that Tomas and Gos have used the exact same words (verbatim in almost every case, although Gos does have a tendency to paraphrase here and there) in nearly every case. Nothing has changed. Their science? No change. Their key points and sub-points? No changes. Their "challenges?" Certainly NO CHANGE. If you were to read these posts from six years ago, you'd think you were reading Tomas and Gos today. No change. That's my entire point. Science changes, but they want absolutist, unchangeable science when it comes to HIV/AIDS..." You're absolutely right, Wally, we dissidents are 100% consistent in our message, while the HIV apologists seem to change their story more often than they change their socks. This much is absolutely true. For example, we've been saying for years that ARVs wouldn't prevent AIDS and might actually accelerate progression to AIDS, because of our opinion that HIV isn't the cause of AIDS. Likewise, we've been saying that viral load wouldn't prove to have any real predictive value, also because we don't believe HIV is the cause of AIDS. You accuse us of using references from 1984 (guilty as charged,) and maintain that any paper that was published more than 5 years ago about AIDS is garbage. What if I told you that I don't have to go back 5 months, much less 5 years, to prove that these two messages that dissidents have been presenting *consistently* were, in fact, 100% correct? Let's all turn to page 451 in the August 5, 2006 issue of Lancet, (http://livingwithouthivdrugs.com/lancet.pdf) where an article was published which proved that, while ARVs appeared to be quite effective at reducing measured viral load, they seemed to do very little to prevent progression to AIDS, and in fact seemed to increase mortality more than a smidgen. The scientific community was scandalized by this revelation, but we dissidents said, "Hell, we've been saying that for years!" Then, in September, it was revealed in JAMA (http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/296/12/1498) that viral load seems to have only 4%-6% predictive value, in terms of determining the rate at which CD4 cells will eventually become depleted, resulting in AIDS. Again, the scientific community was rocked -- this was exactly the opposite of what they'd expected ever since the Ho-Shaw papers. Dissidents, however, had consistently been saying this very same thing all along -- after all, if HIV isn't the cause of CD4 depletion, then viral load would be meaningless in terms of predictive value. As a dissident, I am not ashamed of the consistency of my views, because every time I turn around, the scientific community is shocked by the discovery of something that people like me have been saying consistently for years. --- Gos Wed, 13 Dec 2006 04:03:24 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#a1a672f9-4a12-4894-abf5-cb2a82436e41 Gos 2006-12-13T04:03:24Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#32eba38e-1f8f-4633-8f41-84aff5677423 I'm not saying that they don't have a right to say what they are saying, but to call what they do "discussing" is farcical. I'm not saying that they don't have a right to remain with their feet in concrete shoes whilst science continues to change and grow. In fact, I'm not even trying to "silence them" (as they love to keep saying). I'm not trying to prevent them from spreading their gospel. I'm not trying to prevent anyone from reading their gospel. I have posts saved from Yahoo from five and six years ago that were posted by alleged HIV dissidents, and I can tell you that Tomas and Gos have used the exact same words (verbatim in almost every case, although Gos does have a tendency to paraphrase here and there) in nearly every case. Nothing has changed. Their science? No change. Their key points and sub-points? No changes. Their "challenges?" Certainly NO CHANGE. If you were to read these posts from six years ago, you'd think you were reading Tomas and Gos today. No change. That's my entire point. Science changes, but they want absolutist, unchangeable science when it comes to HIV/AIDS... Science in every other place though? It gets stick then, but virusmyth.whatever has answers for that, too. They have answers, but their only "questions" are "challenges" to people who disagree with them or question their unchanging belief system regarding HIV/AIDS. Now, what should I be holding on about? Please tell me, because I've been listening to this shit for MORE than six years...same shit, different names. It is funny how they complain about the changing faces of HIV/AIDS research, but don't ever complain about the changing faces of cancer research... Funny, an HPV vaccination exists today... I was part of one of the control groups in that study (I don't have anything even remotely resembling HPV or herpes). Funny, but who would have thought that a form of cancer could be prevented by preventing HPV? Funnier, who would have ever believed (say, circa 1998) that an HPV vaccine was even possible? Who connected the dots? How long did it take? How many questions had to be asked and then re-asked and then asked again and then re-framed and asked some more? Countless... Did you know that over 85% of the US population is infected with at least one form of (frequently symptomless) herpes that can cause cervical cancer in women? Who in their wildest dreams would have thought of this day way back in 1985? _Almost_ no one. Statistically, it was no one...just a few folks here and there, doing the groundwork (both unwittingly and purposefully). It all came together in a big way, though... So, what do I believe? I believe that I will continue to question everything, every day. Gos? What does he believe? He'll go back to 1984 to show you what he believes... So, am I angry at Raven, Dominic, you, or even Tomas and Gos? No. But, I am supremely frustrated by a view of science that is hypocritical to its very core, and that view holds that when it comes to HIV/AIDS, science is changeable and that very changeability makes it untrustworthy...it is one of their "dissident" presuppositions... But, we have an HPV vaccine now... So, in the last few posts, hopefully I have provided enough context to outline just some of my frustration with these alleged "dissidents." Raven, he's a true dissident. Terry, darned close to a true dissident, and very clearly questioning everything. Am I a "dissident?" According to Gos and Tomas (who have never asked) I am not...and I am even further denigrated by the fact that as a scientist I am a part of "The Orthodoxy(TM)." Nevermind that I continually question everything that I think I believe...it is such a habit that I don't understand how Gos and Tomas get around it for themselves... Nevertheless, I don't consider myself a dissident. I'm too busy to try to go about labelling my stances on any given subject, especially when they are all subject to constant review. SO... I want everyone to read everything very, very carefully... I'm not making anyone's choices for them (I'm not capable of such a feat, nor do I want to be capable of such a thing). I also want everyone to know that I've been listening to this same-and-unchanging spiel for more than six years... Lastly... Did you know that women are diagnosed with HPV solely on the basis of an abnormal PAP smear, and that there is no HPV test for men? None! But you can vaccinate against it and prevent cervical cancer... No DIRECT test... Hmm... Wed, 13 Dec 2006 01:22:19 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#32eba38e-1f8f-4633-8f41-84aff5677423 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T01:22:19Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#a40319d8-2b06-4d88-bf24-eaeb6b09e66a seems to me like people who are poz are often held to higher standards of responsibility when it comes to their sex lives... why is that?? as i see it: if i am a competent individual and i consent to having risky, unprotected sex with someone and i get HIV or another STD as a result, then the only person responsible is ME... not my partner. i can't blame them if i agreed to bareback at the time... that's why i identify as HIV-neutral. because i fucking hate how poz people are demonized, scorned and seemingly held to higher standards of responsibility for others. IMNSHO, people need to be more self-responsible instead of blaming others for the consequences of their risky choices. to be honest, i feel that someone else's HIV-status is really none of my business. (whatever happened to their right to privacy?) however, if someone chooses to come out as poz, i regard them as incredibly courageous given all the stigma and judgmental bullshit that people who are poz have to put up with these days... Wed, 13 Dec 2006 01:11:15 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#a40319d8-2b06-4d88-bf24-eaeb6b09e66a Sinnerjee 2006-12-13T01:11:15Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#511e9325-11ef-4c23-befb-606c98d87fb9 I ever-so-strongly concur. "Everyone here has different writing styles and brings many different ideas to the table. This is too important of a topic to try to neatly fit it all into one little box. That would be a huge mistake. I know you're pissed and frustrated and maybe rightly so. However I urge you to re-collect yourself and not let the taunting get the best of you. It's distracting from the important stuff you have to say. I want to hear every body. I'm reading and listening very carefully." Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:57:20 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#511e9325-11ef-4c23-befb-606c98d87fb9 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T00:57:20Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#ce7eea8f-d0a8-40f4-a822-26351f17c57b Now hold on here a minute, Wally. I am basically from your camp as it pertains to the subjects we're discussing here, however... ....I personally haven't heard their side before. I don't agree with a lot of what is said, but I'm keenly interested none the less. I think there is truth though to some of their ideas. I'm just not sure I'm comfortable with the explanations. Everyone here has different writing styles and brings many different ideas to the table. This is too important of a topic to try to neatly fit it all into one little box. That would be a huge mistake. I know you're pissed and frustrated and maybe rightly so. However I urge you to re-collect yourself and not let the taunting get the best of you. It's distracting from the important stuff you have to say. I want to hear every body. I'm reading and listening very carefully. Peace, Lucian Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:37:46 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#ce7eea8f-d0a8-40f4-a822-26351f17c57b Lucian 2006-12-13T00:37:46Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8cb66e8d-606f-476a-a1b9-84dd81a1b85a I will add (necessarily) that Terry is the first actual HIV dissident that I have met that has a balanced approach and open mind to the subject of HIV/AIDS. I can respect that (and him), even though I may disagree with any of a number of things he believes, etc. All the rest of these so-called "dissidents?" Take ANY post by Gos or Tomas and just change the name...cookie-cutter automatons...every last one of them. Without the names they would have absolutely NOTHING to distinguish them as being unique or even as being thinking beings... Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:12:37 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8cb66e8d-606f-476a-a1b9-84dd81a1b85a $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T00:12:37Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#6a2a2c06-7230-4154-b795-6ab4b33f0004 I'll tell you what, Raven, Until Tomas made all manner of assumptions about my stance and then proceded (without ever having asked me a question...and, mind you, having publicly set his beliefs in stone), I was willing to be "nice." I reserve the right to rise to the occasion when pushed. Then, Gos showed up, and instead of asking me what it is that I believe or what my stand on any of the issues is he jumped right in and never turned down the opportunity to impugn and malign me. Not a single farging question about WHAT I BELIEVE. But, it's all Ok with you and everyone who tacitly approves with their silence... Then, Dominic (whom I believe is a nice guy) comes off as if this is some sort of four-way penis-envy contest. Sorry, his take is more in-tune with his feelings and his apparent tendency to dislike/shy-away-from any conflict whatsoever. The only "contest" that has ever existed is in the minds of Tomas and Gos, and they play it to the hilt. You can go to any "anti-HIV" Website and see their exact schtick and the recommended references they use, and everything else that they stand for...all in print and ready-for-copy-and-pasting into a "discussion." Except, they have yet to actually discuss the virus itself. A scientific discovery of the means to test for the ACTUAL RNA of the HIV virus is being ignored at present. Twice-mentioned, and twice-ignored. The "discussion" that Gos says he partook of regarding the nature of the HIV virus was actually someone else's words (without quotation marks and without citation), and was merely a point-piece, and not dialogue at all. Yet, Dominic thinks four (as-yet-unnamed) people are involved in a penis contest... I can clearly see that Dominic is having problems with the discussion, but his demand that everyone just shut up and move on is utterly ridiculous. It is further made almost sickeningly wrong-headed by his assertion that such a discussion is disrespectful of those who have died from HIV. So, now you know where I am coming from. If Dominic doesn't like it, he can be honest and say that he doesn't like it. If Dominic doesn't want to read it, he doesn't have to attempt to demean those who feel discussing it is VERY IMPORTANT if we are to honor the memories of those who have died. It isn't "dissidents" who are being lambasted for their viewpoints...the two alleged "dissidents" actually already have their minds made up (no names, but their initials are "Tomas" and "Gos") and those two alleged "dissidents" malign and denigrate anyone who disagrees with or even questions them, and they then throw up one red herring after one straw man argument after another as part of their "discussion." I've seen it a thousand times if I've seen it once. They are cookie-cutter automatons who all say EXACTLY the same things, post EXACTLY the same tripe, and who all claim to be "dissidents," when the are in fact under-educated sheeple who have bought into an anti-science religion and don't understand why everyone else can't make the same leap-of-faith that they have. Yes, they are religious zealots against any science that even remotely says that HIV may exist or that HIV may cause AIDS. If you want self-righteous, go no farther than Tomas or Gos... As for me, I'm a scientist, and I question EVERYTHING, every day...but even YOU didn't ask anyone what they think...not you, not Dominic, not Terry, not Tomas, not Gos, not, not, not... Not a single farging question...oh, buy hey, it's a "discussion." ::feh:: Give me a break... Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:01:19 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#6a2a2c06-7230-4154-b795-6ab4b33f0004 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-13T00:01:19Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#fdfdd772-4f57-4ad4-9f0b-446090f678dc "believe me when I say, my enlightenment has more to do with the questions I have than any answers given here." Arne, That is the mark of true enlightenment. The ignorant always have answers, but the enlightened always have questions. Einstein said it best: "The important thing is to never stop questioning." --- Gos Tue, 12 Dec 2006 22:20:39 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#fdfdd772-4f57-4ad4-9f0b-446090f678dc Gos 2006-12-12T22:20:39Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#5c3fa5b6-57ed-4f57-9672-d520475eba3e Lucian (in your reply about the 'aids in Africa' post) I may not have met you face-to-face, and I may not know all there is to know about you personally but, since we’re all ‘connected’ and based on observation, you appear to be of higher mind of Universal ‘Oneness’ then so, I do know the ‘real you’ wouldn’t allow any disharmony of spirit/mind/body since we’re all from the ‘One’ Source: it’s the same as myself, having a connection with myself (no matter by which form it takes on this planet), but being from my very self (the Source) I’m then learning more about myself, which is you and any/every body and thing: does that make sense? I certainly didn’t judge you because straight out judging anyone or anybody isn’t my consciousness; its all based on observation and my saying what I’ve observed, after contemplation. No God or Source would allow itself to swim in anything that goes against ‘being’ radiant and great wellness, and anyone that believes or accepts this hiv/aids to be supreme their entire entire fate, is contradicting their so-call connection with their Source. Through all the metaphysical spiritual profiles I’ve viewed here, when it comes to this ‘hiv/aids,’ that is when suddenly all Universal/God/Source spirituality seems to go as dim as the last flicker of a candle. Consciousness (people beginning to accept another view and new knowledge that releases us from the grips of this ‘thing’) will only, save lives. Fighting and having a War-against-hiv/aids, has only bought about more of the very thing claimed to be the culprit. Lives aren’t saved when only the same negative energy about dis-ease and death is being sent out. If doesn’t work that way. For those that find solace in holding on to their bag of limitless beliefs, by all means, do so. And for those that lost love ones: look deeper at their lifestyle. Not everyone tells you everything they really do. Where they truly treated for what could have been treatable or, because they were within the confines of what the CDC says is a high-risk group, assumed that when going to the hospital with an ailment, it was automatically assumed they have been infected, and was only administered hiv treatments. Once a person decides to free him or her self off the wheel of fear; then by all means allow that person to explore as much knowledge as they can so that they are better equipped with more then what they’ve been told. Misery loves company (not wanting to look at the reappraisal of hiv/aids) and despises any prisoner that tries to escape. Again, mind is everything. And once we’re ready to ‘change’ our mind, then and only then, will we see changes in our life, and you wouldn’t have to ‘fight’ against hiv/aids’ but will know that there’s nothing to fight against. Persistence only creates more resistance, and that’s the reason no one has see a resolve because we seem to want to lace our self in this ‘thing’ like it is your very existence. It doesn’t matter what you ‘think’ and feel; what matters is what you think and feel…you will get, because that’s just Universal law --- nothing metaphysical or new-age about that. What is damaging are people who get caught up in the cross fire of another’s established, institutionalized, laws Terry Tue, 12 Dec 2006 20:43:47 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#5c3fa5b6-57ed-4f57-9672-d520475eba3e TerryTown 2006-12-12T20:43:47Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#612a3db9-d077-4f3d-b9b7-3073066ff369 I appreciate your post too Raven, I have never been more "enlightened" about AIDS/HIV as I have in the last two weeks, and believe me when I say, my enlightenment has more to do with the questions I have than any answers given here. I honour your journey. Cheers Tue, 12 Dec 2006 19:18:02 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#612a3db9-d077-4f3d-b9b7-3073066ff369 Arne 2006-12-12T19:18:02Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#013a44fa-0c08-4525-af46-0eda1003b12c "If someone knows you are Poz and still wants you to cum in them... i find that the most irresponsible act of all because you are contributing to more infections or the possibilty of such. To me if is far different when you do not know opposed to what you do know. When you know you have a potential disase, then you deserve to get your ass CHECKED." Kash, For what it's worth, I fully understand your sentiment, and I used to feel exactly the same way. Shortly after my [mis]diagnosis, I met a "bug chaser" who wanted me to infect him. As it turns out, I was unable to perform, because of the possibility that I might infect him with HIV. As people will do when they're not having sex, we got into a conversation instead, and I learned a lot about him, including the surprising fact that he'd been actively trying to get HIV for thirteen years, without any success. I also knew a married guy who died in 2003 with AIDS (or rather, he died of liver failure from the meds.) His wife claimed that the Lord had promised her that if she married him, she could have all the unprotected sex she wanted and she'd never get AIDS. She got tested every two weeks, and as of the day he died, his wife was still HIV-negative. And as I've already said, I have by this time had unprotected sex thousands of times, with three different long-term partners, all of whom have continued to test negative, even months or years after we'd stopped having sex. Today, I no longer believe that HIV is sexually transmissible, so for me it's a non-issue, beyond the fact that I don't fuck anyone who isn't aware of my alleged status -- I still don't feel that it would be responsible for me to decide for someone else what risks they should or shouldn't take. As long as they're going into it with their eyes wide open, however, I don't have a problem with it. I will issue you a challenge, though: Find one scientific study which has actually demonstrated sexual transmission of HIV. The vast majority of tests to determine how transmissible it is have come up entirely empty-handed, while the very few that have documented any seroconversions at all have merely *presumed* sexual transmission -- none have actually *proven* it. Taken as a whole, the scientific study in this particular area gives us no reason to believe that HIV is sexually transmissible at all. One particular study often quoted by dissidents is Padian et all 1997, which followed 175 serodiscordant monogamous couples for a total of 282 couple-years. At the beginning of the study, 3/4ths of the couples weren't using condoms, and at the end, more than 2/3rds were using condoms. At the end of the study, Padian reported that "no seroconversions were observed." Today, Dr. Padian herself attempts to debunk dissident use of her study, (you can find her statement at AIDStruth.org), but she does so by pretending that the study was to determine whether condoms are effective (which was stated nowhere in the original study.) This is because if she were to admit the real purpose of the study (ie to determine sexual transmission risk), she'd have to admit that what the study actually demonstrated was ZERO transmission risk, in 282 couple-years (the statistical equivalent of one couple having sex for 282 years, using condoms only about half the time, without transmitting HIV between them.) --- Gos Tue, 12 Dec 2006 19:14:41 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#013a44fa-0c08-4525-af46-0eda1003b12c Gos 2006-12-12T19:14:41Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#41ad2c79-9ef9-46d5-b9f1-61bd2986e809 Thanks Lucian. I had never had cause to tell of my experience up 'til now. I appreciate your response. Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:52:25 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#41ad2c79-9ef9-46d5-b9f1-61bd2986e809 Raven 2006-12-12T16:52:25Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#34921a70-00b4-445a-922e-4ba28b509efb Yes, Mick most definitely. I think I wasn't so clear in my meaning or my statement. I'm not too worried about the slim, slim chance of "infecting" someone with hiv as a bottom. I am concerned and more vigilinat, due to my experience, about other stds that I might catch or transmit. for sure. That's why I said I am on the lookout for other stuff that could kill me dead. Cuz the hiv, if I actually have it, seems to be not harming at all. I am grateful for my health, whatever it's cause. And I am more informed and more involved when I feel my health not doing so well. I hope I was able to make that all clear in my original post, but sometimes I get sidetracked while writing. Thanks for reading. Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:50:42 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#34921a70-00b4-445a-922e-4ba28b509efb Raven 2006-12-12T16:50:42Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#490d38d1-1a69-4121-8bc5-ba770cabb534 Oh, you make me blush, you do! And you KNOW I Love you too. Tue, 12 Dec 2006 16:44:50 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#490d38d1-1a69-4121-8bc5-ba770cabb534 Raven 2006-12-12T16:44:50Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#22f222bf-1cda-46bd-adec-6eb98fd09b6c Can one contract STD's if one is only a "Topman"? Of course! If a "Bottom only" Man has Herpes Simplex inside his rectum the "topman" who inserts his Penis in there without a Condom can get Herpes on his Penis. The same is true of Gohnorreah via the Urethral Opening. If stage 2 Syphyliss is present in the throat of a Bottom Man,and the Topman "fucks that throat" then the Topman can get it on his Penis and inside his Urethra. Chlamydia is also spread to the Topman through the oral and anal orifices. "Non Gonoccal Urethritis" is also listed as an STD,the most common way to get this one is through unprotected Anal sex from bacteria in fecal matter present in the Rectum wich enters the Penis through the Urethra. Are "Top-Only" Men exempt from STD's? Hell NO! Tue, 12 Dec 2006 15:58:27 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#22f222bf-1cda-46bd-adec-6eb98fd09b6c Jake 2006-12-12T15:58:27Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#97dfcd20-5b84-42f9-8bf2-6b62ef8f8862 Mick: >>>"Gos, do you insert your penis into people fuck them and cum inside? ? Gos:>>>>I know I'm probably being set up here, but I'll go along with the gag. IF my partner knows my alleged HIV status and he or she still wants me to, then absolutely. I don't fuck anyone who isn't aware of my status. ___________ Today i had a conversation with a poz guy who I am very attracted to and our conversation swung into the area of whether he would fuck sa neg guy who knew he was poz, without a condom. I didnt tell him after he told me yes he would, that his answer deeply troubled me. aTroubled me more after him telling me that he could not live with himself he seroconverted someone else and gave them this very difficult and scary disease. I didnt understand his answer and how it could exist on two opposite sides of the responsibilty spectrum and be in the same mans mind. what? I believe that you DO become responsible when you know you have a potentailly deadly disease that you fight.......... If you dont want to contribute to the spread of HIV/AIDs...why engage in any sex act that could end up inparticipating in the butterfly effect of infection rates in america. HOWEVER, i do believe you can only take on so much responsibilty in the act of Love and sex... yet still you could look at it, everytime you fuck as a chance to enjoy yourself and educate without teaching. If someone knows you are Poz and still wants you to cum in them... i find that the most irresponsible act of all because you are contributing to more infections or the possibilty of such. To me if is far different when you do not know opposed to what you do know. When you know you have a potential disase, then you deserve to get your ass CHECKED. nuff said. Tue, 12 Dec 2006 11:51:28 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#97dfcd20-5b84-42f9-8bf2-6b62ef8f8862 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-12T11:51:28Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#11e00fe0-fecc-436d-86a0-8066e5ffcf87 Sorry, I just know him very very very well thats all Tue, 12 Dec 2006 10:45:15 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#11e00fe0-fecc-436d-86a0-8066e5ffcf87 Dominic G 2006-12-12T10:45:15Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#12857304-56a6-4b59-ac2f-a34c84943c17 Dominic, certainly not! It just struck me to be at odds with everything else in his post. Tue, 12 Dec 2006 07:58:49 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#12857304-56a6-4b59-ac2f-a34c84943c17 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-12T07:58:49Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#f0a49ce7-7a25-4351-9eb1-24330f0c48c2 Mick thats ALL you got from that post??????? Tue, 12 Dec 2006 06:43:10 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#f0a49ce7-7a25-4351-9eb1-24330f0c48c2 Dominic G 2006-12-12T06:43:10Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#c65ed989-c75d-419a-8013-106f1da7e3de Now that boys, IS why I love that birdman of mine. So very much!!!!!! Tue, 12 Dec 2006 06:42:14 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#c65ed989-c75d-419a-8013-106f1da7e3de Dominic G 2006-12-12T06:42:14Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#bf76b725-4f14-47fa-b6fb-2f651f9df01c g'day Raven, thanks for sharing that but can't one transfer STD's even if one is being a bottom? Tue, 12 Dec 2006 04:40:15 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#bf76b725-4f14-47fa-b6fb-2f651f9df01c $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-12T04:40:15Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#4162c828-dc87-48b1-9a80-56d9e0b57e7e Wowzers. Amazing piece, man. I'm blown away. Tue, 12 Dec 2006 04:17:42 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#4162c828-dc87-48b1-9a80-56d9e0b57e7e Lucian 2006-12-12T04:17:42Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#cd90f718-69ba-4e33-b1ad-48cad54095ad Fisrt off, Kudos to my beloved friend Domimic for saying his piece. I agree with what he said, entirely . I'd been reading the original post and the resulting threads with an increasing sense of unease. Then when I felt like my friend was being mocked a bit, I had fucking had it. So now I'm gonna say some sheyatt. Second off. Isn't this tribe called alternative gay people? How is it that "denialists" are not respected simply for the fact that they are presenting an "alternative" viewpoint, whether it's agreed with or not? Read my question clearly, people. I don't wanna hear some self-righteous attack on someone's opinions or beliefs. The "denialists" have just as much right to their questioons and questionable idea as does the mainstream aids adherents. Third off, I usually make clear right away that my shit is just that. So if ya gonna disagree, go'head. But do not attack or otherwise disrespect me. Cuz if ya can't play nice in the sandox, yeah, ya should get kicked the-fuck out. Fourth now, finally... I was diagnosed as "hiv+" almost three years ago. I took the news the worst of any patient yet seen at my former clinic. Several of the staff later told me they were all amazed i continued to show up. They expected me to be their first (documented) suicide. I was not. I had been dating a guy up to that point who broke up with me later that same day. as I addressed in the previous paragraph, I was NOT a well person that day. I flipped the fuck out. that man I'd been falling in mutaul love with? He told me never to contact him again, and if we saw each other in public , do not aknowledge him, he will not aknowledge me. So much for love. It took me a long time to seprate my pain and anger at that betrayal from my issues with getting a "death sentance" Cuz that's what the mainstream aids rhetoric has told. me. As they are telling me in the next breath that I have a "regulable condition". I began to ask queastions of my team as they monitored my mysterious, not-very much-changing- numbers. And not get a whole lot of answers. Now, at that point, I ddin't have very much verbage at my disposal. So I probaly asked not the clearest or best worded of questions. But I became quite frustrated that many of my questions were not answered in a way that was understandable to me. Do not read this to mean "answers I did not like" I said and meant UNDERSTANDABLE to me. I became dissastisfied with my clinic and stopped going regulalry for check ups. I eventually began experiencing inner ear disturbance including vertigo and tinitus I though I had a sinus infection and didn't get too worried. until my hearing went out entirely on my left side. I woke up that morning with the left side of my face in a death-stupor. Had I a stroke? Nope. Bell's Palsy they told me. Ain't that the shits. Still wasn't worried. Cuz they told me Bell's Palsy goes away. A month later, when I was having a severe( read burns like fire and you can scratch 'till your flesh tears off., but it's still gonna ITCH) rash and some mild jaundice, they finally figured it out. Nope not hiv related. But STD related. Neuro Syphillis. Second stage. Apparently, I was one of the rare, but not unheard of, asymptomatics. That's when they had me on some major penicillin. I did well and did one check up to follow up. My mistake. It came back with vengeaneance, nearly killing a me a second time. Yes, you read that right. I had not been duly participatory in my healing and follow-up. I will definitely agree. But here's the rub. the second time, I tried to tow the party line and jump through all the hoops and I STILL was in danger of being misdiagnosed. New physician at clinic.. New staff at clinic. New physician not answering my questions and actually advising against the tests necessary to prove what I still had hadn't gone away. For my own safety, He said. Interstingly, authorizing instead awhole barage of expensive testing, and I am not insured. None of said tests negated the need for the eventual lumbar puncture(read spinal tap) to diagnose correctly. Do I sound bitter yet? I went on a rampage that time. Cuz I'd done a lot more questioning and found answers that made sense. In the "denialist" mindset. I do not mean to imply that all my questions were answered exactly or that my mind was now at ease and I was fully informed and confident or any of that blithe-sounding pollyanna bullshit. But I felt for the first time that my particular experience of being a person, told someting and treated accordingly, even if it doesn't fit, wasn't so novel an experience. at my last meeting at the clinic, I was told for the very first time by them that i proably had never had Bells' Palsy. That I most likely had neurological damage and my hearing may never return, nor full motor skill onl my eft-side face. But that they weren't quite sure... I have now severed connection to that clinic and am seeking others in a broader geographical area and also , holpefully, of broader mindset. Cuz I had a nurse at my clinic engage with me thus. When I shared with her my disinclinatin for aids meds, and that I'd be willing to do more holistic and naturopathic treatments, she told me, and I quote, 'Well you can dance naked around black candles at midnight for all I care. There's gonna come a day where you gotta make a choice. Meds, or death." I was like. Wow. I just so disagree. Especially wihth that statement from the same cliinician who kept telling me hiv is not a death sentance. So I guess I've become a denialist by default. Cuz I do not believe the accepted cannon, as I have not had the acceptable experience. I have had some of my questions answered in the apparently heretical "denialist" rhetoric. I remain, however, open to the ideas and beliefs of others. An important side note: Two of my best friends also are poz, and are both on meds. One, doing very well, with very few, and mild at that, side effects. The other, on meds and seriously thinkin' about not being Cuz he wasn't sick 'til he started taking the meds. And the side effects have continued to worsen. Whatever he decides, I will support him. Just as the friend who is doing well has my full support . They are both open to my differing viewpoints. So see, people. We CAN all get along. Let's just agree to hear what others are saying and be glad of ANYTHING that promotes the health and well-being of orselves and others. I see a valid need for the "denialist" mindset, because it is always a good thing to revisit what we THINK we know. The worst result might be a change of accepted ideas. Or perhaps a strenghtening of current ones. But I feel strongly that all positions and beliefs have merit. Whether I agree with them or not. And yes, Kash, I care about the status of my partner if we're gonna be versatile. And NO, I don't care if I'm gonna bottom. But I'm gonna keep my eyes open for the OTHER stuff that also can kill me dead. Like Neuro-Syph. Peace. Tue, 12 Dec 2006 04:08:41 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#cd90f718-69ba-4e33-b1ad-48cad54095ad Raven 2006-12-12T04:08:41Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#0e1e3a89-ec35-413f-9b11-74d86272a604 "Dominic, what would be disrespectful to all of my friends who have died of AIDS is if I just let Gos copy-and-paste his pamphleteering lunacy without posting a wider view of information. " What wider view, Wally? A wider view of ways to combine pejoratives and defamatory statements with baseless accusations of plagiarism, terrorism, and quackery? In case you haven't noticed, Terry, Tomas, and I have beaten you to in the race to the high ground, and you have yet to have gotten it through your head that there was a race. We're off in other threads with other Tribe members, having discussions about AIDS in which no one has yet insulted anyone else. Even in one particular thread, where a guy named Jarjar is offending people with his unpopular views, no one has called him any names. Now, if you'd like to join us in a higher level of debate, we'd be happy to engage you, but as long as you persist in evading your obligation to give facts to support your arguments, by instead providing only insults, name-calling, and ridiculous accusations, you are losing the argument. Think I'm wrong about this? Note the words of another Tribe member: "Name calling happens when you run outta ammo and you just wanna hurt someone." So if you want to continue to prove your lack of evidence to support your side of the argument, by all means, continue to shoot yourself in the foot while claiming you've blown us out of the water. It only helps our side of the argument. --- Gos P.S. Psssst, Wally.... We got laureates, yes we do We got laureates, HOW 'BOUT YOU? Tue, 12 Dec 2006 01:26:34 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#0e1e3a89-ec35-413f-9b11-74d86272a604 Gos 2006-12-12T01:26:34Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#538e5a10-78b1-4f5a-bb51-7c51249813d0 for all the appeals to scientific authorities and data here, it's still feels like that age old battle of the orthodoxy versus heretics. who needs religion when people are willing to mock and attack each other over any disagreement they feel passionate about??? “For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who disbelieve, no amount of proof is sufficient.” - St. Ignatius of Loyola Tue, 12 Dec 2006 01:06:00 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#538e5a10-78b1-4f5a-bb51-7c51249813d0 Sinnerjee 2006-12-12T01:06:00Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#cf567e48-af49-4e06-953c-1182380246ca Dominic, what would be disrespectful to all of my friends who have died of AIDS is if I just let Gos copy-and-paste his pamphleteering lunacy without posting a wider view of information. It is unfortunate that this seems to upset you. Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:11:46 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#cf567e48-af49-4e06-953c-1182380246ca $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-11T20:11:46Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#29d5576f-958c-442b-bd2f-00f02ed411ea " Pssst, you still haven't offered a shred of proof that the virus even exists, stupid.... " I have, and most specifically the new test that directly tests for the HIV virus' RNA, but that's not the point. It isn't about whether or not I offered proof, it is that I have been trying to engage you and Tomas for days and days in a discussion about the virus and viruses like it. All the other trappings, all the other topics, all the challenges, all the assumptions were all added by you and Tomas. Neither of you has yet to ask me a single question about my views or ideas. I've posted a fair cross-section of information, and you've automatically assumed whatever it is that you believe about me. You say you're open to discussion, but all you've done is to tell me who you think I am, and you haven't even tried to find out for yourself who I am or what I'm all about....and you wonder why I might bristle? LOL! Mon, 11 Dec 2006 20:04:47 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#29d5576f-958c-442b-bd2f-00f02ed411ea $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-11T20:04:47Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#4cfead9a-2a32-4a3e-88c3-d0ff33f4054d "Nice Try Gos " Thanks, Jake! That means a lot coming from you! --- Gos Mon, 11 Dec 2006 18:34:19 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#4cfead9a-2a32-4a3e-88c3-d0ff33f4054d Gos 2006-12-11T18:34:19Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#e8835537-f118-4820-bfa8-1eae4bb6fbec Nice Try Gos LMFAO! Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:58:41 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#e8835537-f118-4820-bfa8-1eae4bb6fbec Jake 2006-12-11T15:58:41Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#47f81095-d471-417a-8d67-e701cd6e5fa4 "I tend to believe that a virus is the cause of hiv/aids, but for the sake of argument let's assume for a minute that the "denialists" are right. If so then what has been killing people for all these years and what can be done to prevent it. Also, what should people do if they are sick with the symptoms of hiv/aids?" Good question, Bear. Let me ask you something: If I told you that heart attacks weren't caused by a virus, would you say, "then what causes them?" Of course not, as we both know that heart attacks can be caused by a wide variety of different factors and co-factors. It is no different with AIDS -- AIDS can have different causes for different people and still fall well within the spectrum of the same syndrome, especially since the spectrum of disease covered by the AIDS definition is so broad -- much broader than the clinical definition of a heart attack. So, rather than asking "what is THE cause (singular) of AIDS?", we should be asking "what are the factors and co-factors (plural) that cause AIDS?" The first cases of AIDS, starting from the first 5 documented by Dr. Gottlieb in Los Angeles in 1981, exhibited three primary symptoms in common: KS, pneumocystic pneumonia, and low T4 cell counts. (Interestingly, about half of the original five reported no promiscuous behavior.) In the early 1990s, KS was quietly dropped from the list of AIDS indicator diseases, and is today recognized as a disease most likely caused by abuse of nitrite inhalants, (AKA poppers or rush), a class of drugs primarily abused by gay males, and almost unheard of in straight or lesbian culture. As it turns out, all five of Gottleib's original patients were heavy nitrite abusers. Pneumocystic pneumonia is caused primarily by immunosuppression which can, in turn, have a wide variety of causes, including sleep deprivation, chronic malnutrition, recreational drug abuse, advancing age, pregnancy, overmedication (especially overmedication with antibiotics and/or cortico- and/or anabolic steroids), emotional stress, and the list goes on. Depleted CD4 count in someone exhibiting these sorts of disease is pretty clearly an indicator of immune collapse, but the question still remains, what caused that collapse? Was it a virus, as so many have claimed, or was it, in fact, purely caused by what are now known as "co-factors"? You'll notice that for about the past 15 years, the mainstream position has drifted more and more towards a "co-factor" hypothesis -- once upon a time, HIV was considered to be the sole cause of AIDS, capable of causing AIDS in the absence of other factors. Then it was noticed that many of those diagnosed with HIV weren't even getting sick, much less dying. This resulted in two things: 1) Dr. Peter Duesberg published an article in the early 1990s, in which he documented over 4,000 cases previously documented in the medical literature, of full blown AIDS in HIV-negative people; 2) Dr. Luc Montagnier, the discoverer of HIV, announced at the sixth annual AIDS Conference that, in his opinion, HIV was neither necessary nor sufficient to cause AIDS, and that scientists should instead focus on the "co-factors" already recognized by the scientific community -- co-factors such as sleep deprivation, chronic malnutrition, recreational and/or medicinal drug toxicity, stress, etc. This, in turn, resulted in two things: 1) The CDC coined the term "Idiopathic CD4 Lymphocytopenia (ICL)" to explain away all the HIV-free AIDS cases -- from that day forward, AIDS without HIV would be called "ICL", and AIDS with HIV would be called "AIDS". This circular definition completes the illusion of a 100% correlation between HIV and AIDS. 2) The mainstream position started drifting more and more towards the current co-factor hypotheses, which acknowledge that it is possible for an HIV-positive to live for years or decades without developing AIDS, provided he avoided AIDS co-factors, (and yet, ironically, refuse to acknowledge that these "co-factors", by themselves, can cause full-blown AIDS if taken to excess, even in the absence of HIV.) In my opinion, if you want to know the cause of AIDS, go to any mainstream AIDS authority, and get a list of co-factors. Crystal meth causes AIDS. Poppers abuse causes AIDS. Poverty causes AIDS (especially in Africa -- see the AIDS in Africa thread.) Stress causes AIDS. Taking antibiotics to excess causes AIDS. Malnutrition causes AIDS. -- Actually, these are all co-factors which can be combined in any number of different combinations which may cause AIDS in any given individual, and there are other co-factors too numerous to list, but at the end of the day, there are so many good candidates that one is forced to wonder whether HIV plays any role in AIDS at all, since so many HIV-positives who avoid these co-factors live for decades without any trouble, while there are HIV-negatives every year for whom these "co-factors" cause the very diseases that we would call "AIDS" if they were HIV-positive. --- Gos Mon, 11 Dec 2006 15:45:43 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#47f81095-d471-417a-8d67-e701cd6e5fa4 Gos 2006-12-11T15:45:43Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#2478b8df-d0f8-436d-afa1-884c64028ef3 I tend to believe that a virus is the cause of hiv/aids, but for the sake of argument let's assume for a minute that the "denialists" are right. If so then what has been killing people for all these years and what can be done to prevent it. Also, what should people do if they are sick with the symptoms of hiv/aids? Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:38:44 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#2478b8df-d0f8-436d-afa1-884c64028ef3 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-11T13:38:44Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#7de17766-d4a4-432c-8bf6-773c5033b985 "Pssst, it's the virus, stupid... " Wally, Pssst, you still haven't offered a shred of proof that the virus even exists, stupid.... We got laureates, yes we do We got laureates, HOW 'BOUT YOU? --- Gos Mon, 11 Dec 2006 13:27:10 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#7de17766-d4a4-432c-8bf6-773c5033b985 Gos 2006-12-11T13:27:10Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#15c6dc04-1bf2-4dea-b7b0-f19b34c1dcf1 CAN WE PLEASE JUST LET THIS ALONE AND MOVE ON TO SOMTHING ELSE ???? WHY DO YOU GUYS NEED TO BE RIGHT AND WHY DOES SOMEONE NEED TO BE WRONG? AND SO ON I REALLY WONDER WHAT AND WHERE THIS IS COMING FROM WE HAVE ALL LOST SOMEONE , SOMEWAY, SOMEHOW TO AIDS..... I HAVE AND I DONT CARE WHAT KILLED HIM ALL I KNOW IS THAT HE IS NOW GONE AND THERE IS NO AMOUNT OF FIGHTING AND BITCHIN OR ANYTHING ELSE WILL BE HIM BACK OR ANYONE ELSE... ALL OF YOU ARE DISREPECTING MEMORIES OFF ALL OF THOSE WHO WE HAVE LOST...... SO BEFORE YOU FEEL THE NEED TO BE RIGHT ,STOP AND ASK YOURSELFIES WHY????????????? LET STOP CALLING NAME AND PUTTING EACH OTHER AND RESPECT EACH OTHER !!!! PLEASE??? Mon, 11 Dec 2006 10:17:53 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#15c6dc04-1bf2-4dea-b7b0-f19b34c1dcf1 Dominic G 2006-12-11T10:17:53Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#aa63f020-0ab0-4233-84bb-25bf43c57c55 Irrelevent, it isn't about what I might have done or could do. Pssst, it's the virus, stupid... Mon, 11 Dec 2006 09:49:25 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#aa63f020-0ab0-4233-84bb-25bf43c57c55 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-11T09:49:25Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#16de0506-742f-4a1a-9ed1-c3281d02868f Well, boys, keep on denying. I changed my best friend's diapers and emptied his puke bucket and carried him from his bed to the shower seat for a month before he died...It wasn't hard to lift him at all, he only weighed about 70 lbs. by then. Man, that was some great vacation! The month off from work -- the airfare from the Midwest to Florida and then from Florida to Puerto Rico for that fantastic funeral -- the 3 year old screaming "Tio!" had to have been the highlight. Then the lonesome flights back from San Juan to Chicago then the wait for the commuter flight...then trying to get a cab at midnight on a 3 day weekend start... I'll never forget what a great holiday that was! It was almost as much fun as all my own clothes falling off of me and looking like an anorexic 12 year old girl with chest hair and a penis...and the brain infection! That was fantastic! Can you imagine the fun of not knowing if things really happened for 6 months or not -- or even worse, not really wanting to know? That is such fun! To have evil people behind you on the sidewalk...and the cops called several times for you screaming at the bushes to go away! Oh what joy! As someone else wrote, if not for my medicines and my family, I would not have been alive even a year ago. A CD4 count of 85. That is low. CD4 counts must be imaginary, too, eh? How about HIV viral load of 150 000 counts and weighing 140. January 2005. December 2006, fast forward after Sustiva and Combivir: 185 lbs., no detectable viral load, CD4 of about 300 last count...no dementia, only a little short term memory problem. Working for a major national progressive political organization as a researcher/author/editor and finished editing a 700pp scholarly book down to 450pp that is now at the press for a client. Wow! I don't know what I had, but that HAART sure did whip me back into shape! Could the denialists please tell us the one thing that all of we alleged HIV + have in common besides bodily fluids sharing? Come get a pure dose of HIV+ blood injected, someone who has a heavy viral load. Then come back and see me in a while...if you aren't blind from CMV. Mon, 11 Dec 2006 05:19:23 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#16de0506-742f-4a1a-9ed1-c3281d02868f neal 2006-12-11T05:19:23Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#96b36239-1256-4011-bed2-ba206ab729e9 Is an accusation of plagiarism the best you can do by way of argument? What's the matter, Wally, couldn't you find even one thing wrong with my post on the life cycle of a common retrovirus? Pssst...Hey, Wally.... We got laureates, yes we do, We got laureates, HOW 'BOUT YOU? --- Gos Mon, 11 Dec 2006 03:33:03 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#96b36239-1256-4011-bed2-ba206ab729e9 Gos 2006-12-11T03:33:03Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#5fc9e6d4-2848-4715-af05-073678d4370f I do have to point out (in all fairness) that if you are going to start discounting people's replies to your plagiarism, you're going to have to start with Tomas, as well... The reality is that pointing out spelling/typos is in poor taste...especially when they don't destroy the meaning. Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:38:59 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#5fc9e6d4-2848-4715-af05-073678d4370f $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-10T23:38:59Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#ad085d80-7878-4151-84fe-0efe64e6a524 " C'mon, Wally, you've already wussed out of providing any proof that HIV exists or that there's any such thing as a test for it that's actually been verified against actual finding of virus in those who test positive. " ------------------------ "Wussed out" of providing proof that HIV exists? That was never something that I was attempting to do...no, in fact I have actually been trying to have a discussion about the virus itself. You've added all the extra fillers to enhance your ubiquitous chest-thumping. We haven't had a discussion about tests for HIV yet. Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:35:56 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#ad085d80-7878-4151-84fe-0efe64e6a524 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-10T20:35:56Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#fde17c9d-825c-4182-9b72-172aaef00acd It is irrelevent because those are all things that he uses to deflect the thread into his own agenda. My entire point has been to bring it all back to the cellular level, and all Gos and Tomas do are obfuscate through their little "challenges," etc... It is so convenient that you have nothing to say about Gos' personal attacks on people in every post he makes...those also make what he is plagiarizing completely irrelevant. The other thing is that NO ONE has actually ASKED me what it is that I think or believe... YOU, TOMAS, GOS, and TERRY have all TOLD me all sorts of things about my mind and how it is made up, but you've not asked a single question about what I actually believe/think. Way to win friends and influence people, eh? But my asking questions is just SOOOOO wrong-headed... ::feh!:: Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:24:51 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#fde17c9d-825c-4182-9b72-172aaef00acd $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-10T20:24:51Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#7cc4a2b5-3663-43cd-9d80-53096701e6d9 You haven't "met" anything except to quote without citing...plagiarism suits you. So, is that your idea of "discussion?" The comments about my brain size and my attention span are "discussion?" When you can actually partake in a "discussion" (involves active participation, not usurpation), I'll notice right away. Until then, plagiarize away. Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:19:59 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#7cc4a2b5-3663-43cd-9d80-53096701e6d9 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-10T20:19:59Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8accf826-660f-4753-b39a-f7faeb10356f Again, irrelevent in every aspect. Until you understand how an RNA retrovirus like HIV actually functions, you will always be left with nothing to do but obfuscate to cover up your ignorance. It is unfortunate that you have to be so bellicose in belaboring every point except the ones that people are trying to talk to you about...those you ignore outright. You are "making it easy for me" by providing straw men and red herrings that have absolutely nothing to do with the basics of how an HIV virus operates in the real world... Don't pretend that you're doing anything for me -- everything you do is for your own edification. Sun, 10 Dec 2006 20:14:28 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8accf826-660f-4753-b39a-f7faeb10356f $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-10T20:14:28Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#2f331adb-b016-4479-b687-e4290fad5079 Who would even bother? His ranting isn't worth a second thought. Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:58:48 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#2f331adb-b016-4479-b687-e4290fad5079 Jake 2006-12-10T18:58:48Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#3be88a5f-61eb-4285-ba0a-d9cb3a6697a9 I can not engage you gos. Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:22:03 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#3be88a5f-61eb-4285-ba0a-d9cb3a6697a9 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-10T18:22:03Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#99184dd2-9bc2-455a-ad97-34d9334b2062 Mick, That's your opinion, and as I told Wally -- if you don't like my sexual practices, don't have sex with me. It's as simple as that. I have not forced anyone to have sex with me, and I have done nothing to hide my alleged HIV status from any of my sex partners. How any of my sex partners chooses to deal with me sexually and with my HIV status is their own business, and none of yours. --- Gos Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:11:15 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#99184dd2-9bc2-455a-ad97-34d9334b2062 Gos 2006-12-10T18:11:15Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#ed86f545-b563-4b34-81e5-e5ddc5cef6fd you are both dangerous and demented. get the help you need. Sun, 10 Dec 2006 17:02:46 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#ed86f545-b563-4b34-81e5-e5ddc5cef6fd $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-10T17:02:46Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#f10e3434-943e-43ae-98e4-9471472afc7f "Gos, do you insert your penis into people fuck them and cum inside? ? I know I'm probably being set up here, but I'll go along with the gag. IF my partner knows my alleged HIV status and he or she still wants me to, then absolutely. I don't fuck anyone who isn't aware of my status. Since my [mis]diagnosis, I've had three long term relationships, including the one I was in when I first tested positive, which lasted five years thereafter. In the first of the three, we had unprotected vaginal and anal intercourse well over a thousand times, and she never caught it. The second lasted nearly 2 years, in which we had unprotected vaginal and anal sex hundreds of times -- she's still HIV-negative. With the current one, we've been having unprotected vaginal and occasional anal for nearly a year, and she's HIV-negative. In all cases, I came inside them (usually at their insistence, as a matter of fact.) --- Gos Sun, 10 Dec 2006 16:45:28 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#f10e3434-943e-43ae-98e4-9471472afc7f Gos 2006-12-10T16:45:28Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#f54470f8-577b-4673-bffb-0b0814fd40ff Gos, do you insert your penis into people fuck them and cum inside? Sun, 10 Dec 2006 09:20:17 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#f54470f8-577b-4673-bffb-0b0814fd40ff $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-10T09:20:17Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#148f2cad-bab8-465b-8408-67429325154f Oh. OK. Well since you put it that way... When I have sex with someone, I do not concern myself with whether they are possessed by demons, it does not occur to me to check under the bed for gremlins, and it never once occurred to me that my partner might be a werewolf. Why, then, would I be concerned about whether they have a virus for which there is as much proof as there is for demons, gremlins, and werewolves? Does that satisfy the question inherent in the title of this thread? It's the most honest answer I can give. --- Gos P.S. We've got laureates yes we do We've got laureates HOW 'BOUT YOU? Sun, 10 Dec 2006 08:37:55 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#148f2cad-bab8-465b-8408-67429325154f Gos 2006-12-10T08:37:55Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#dfb678f5-e7cf-4ad9-a9de-2dbd79fa7ada Beaten at my own game?...not hardly! My "Game" with this thread and "the other one" is just beginning Gos. You and your Buddy Tomas "Hijacked" the point of the original thread wich was NOT "Is HIV/AIDS for real" It was "Do you care about the status of your sexual partners" SEE the above title for those like you and Tomas who cant read a thread Title and only repond to the CORRECT TOPIC relevant to it's Title You see Gos? after a thread has been hijacked,it as Wally pointed out,becomes a useless thread,and from that point on its just "Fun for Fodder". Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:59:27 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#dfb678f5-e7cf-4ad9-a9de-2dbd79fa7ada Jake 2006-12-10T07:59:27Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#2c907f01-c00c-4c56-a223-f720b2bb9a6b "HEYYY GOS! I can see you have been reading your "Physicians Desk Refference" again.. Nice try!" ...said the man who had nothing better to say, because he'd been beaten at his own game and knew it. His hands jittered on the keyboard, causing him to spell "Refference" with two F's. We got laureates, yes we do, We got laureates HOW 'BOUT YOU? --- Gos Sun, 10 Dec 2006 07:15:10 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#2c907f01-c00c-4c56-a223-f720b2bb9a6b Gos 2006-12-10T07:15:10Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#38e4f4e0-100f-401d-bf20-9bc4258dbc83 Wally why is it irrelvant? I am really WHY!!!! becuase its not your why of thinking? I unerstand that One will every never be able to change your mind about this, and I also understand that you will never change, anyone elses mind.... Sun, 10 Dec 2006 06:31:17 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#38e4f4e0-100f-401d-bf20-9bc4258dbc83 Dominic G 2006-12-10T06:31:17Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#069138e2-1e2d-455a-a07d-1921989bfd39 HEYYY GOS! I can see you have been reading your "Physicians Desk Refference" again.. Nice try! Sun, 10 Dec 2006 06:12:10 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#069138e2-1e2d-455a-a07d-1921989bfd39 Jake 2006-12-10T06:12:10Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#71db36d5-1510-4a59-ad14-ad55c9693e3e OK, ya know what, Wally, I'm gonna join you at the microscopic level, since that is the scale of your brain anyway. However, a really good explanation of retroviruses takes time, but considering your short attention span, I shall try to be breif. A retrovirus is a virus that transcribes RNA into DNA -- hence the prefix "retro-" signifying that the virus works in the reverse manner from other types of viruses. Instead of transcribing cellular DNA into viral RNA as most viruses do to reproduce (killing the cell in the process), a retrovirus transcribes viral RNA into cellular DNA. By and large retroviruses are harmless, and are referred to by microbiologists as "junk DNA" and some actually serve beneficial roles, such as control of gene transcription, resistance to exogenous retroviral infection, and mediation of cell fusion in an embryo. In fact, because of their unique method of reproduction, which is dependent upon cellular reproduction, they are actually dependent upon the continued survival and replication of their host cell. Because of this, they were in the pre-AIDS era considered a candidate for cancer-causing viruses, since cancer is a disease in which cells reproduce too rapidly, but while they are often associated with cancer, (for example, retroviral particles have been proven to bud from leukemiac cells,) it has never been proven that they actually cause cancer in any case in humans, and only one or two have ever been found to cause cancer in animals (such as the Rous Sarcoma Virus [RSV] which causes brain tumors in chickens.) Other notable RNA viruses include the virus that causes smallpox. However, such viruses are an extreme rarity -- 4% of the genetic material in every cell in your body is retroviral -- enough to make 400 retroviral particles the size that HIV is said to be -- and yet they are harming you in no way. The vast majority (>99.9%) are utterly harmless, and as I said earlier, some are actually beneficial. This is one reason that purification is so important, when one is trying to establish the existence of a single, unique retrovirus, so that it can be proven to cause a particular disease. The presence of retroviruses, by themselves, do not necessarily indicate that they are causing disease, since the vast majority are harmless -- if one wishes to prove that ONE of them causes ONE disease, then one must obtain a purified sample of that ONE virus and inject it into an uninfected host or at least culture it in uninfected tissues or cell cultures, to prove that it infects them and causes the same disease that was observed in the host from which the retrovirus was isolated. This having never been done with HIV, HIV has never been proven to be the cause of AIDS, or for that matter, to be a single, unique retrovirus. How is it possible to tell the difference between a single virus that mutates rapidly, and a 'soup' of hundreds of different retroviruses, unless you've isolated the virus you're looking for, and cultured it to prove that it mutates? Instead of purifying and culturing HIV, however, Gallo co-cultured cell cultures from AIDS patients with leukemia cells that he'd developed in the laboratory, shocked them with chemicals, and lo and behold, these leukemia cells started to bud retroviruses (as leukemia cells are known to do under certain circumstances). Then he runs out and holds a press conference weeks before his findings are to be published in Science, and voila -- an artefact produced in the laboratory becomes the world's largest viral fraud. (A fraud, by the way, which resulted in him being investigated in the early 1990s, which in turn resulted in censure by the NIH for patent fraud, scientific misconduct, and theft of intellectual property. This is why Gallo no longer works for the NIH, and instead runs a private research facility in Maryland.) Now, Wally, I've met you on the cellular level. Whatcha gonna do, start naming orthodox AIDS researchers who've won the Nobel Prize? Ya only need to name one, Wally -- surely there are dozens to choose from. We got laureates, yes we do, We got laureates, how 'bout YOU? --- Gos Sun, 10 Dec 2006 06:07:57 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#71db36d5-1510-4a59-ad14-ad55c9693e3e Gos 2006-12-10T06:07:57Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#5e5d7801-0799-408f-b1ff-ee343266cc64 C'mon, Wally, you've already wussed out of providing any proof that HIV exists or that there's any such thing as a test for it that's actually been verified against actual finding of virus in those who test positive. Instead, you accused me of trying to throw up 90 different kinds of bullshit so that you'd have to wade through it knee-deep, so that I could say I'd won when you refused to go to the trouble. So now I'm making it easy for you, and I'm gonna stick to this ONE thing -- not 4 proofs, not three reasons to believe in ARVs, not even two reasons why we should believe that AIDS is caused by a virus when its spread has in no way resembled that of any virus in history -- ONE challenge: Name a non-dissident AIDS researcher who has won a Nobel Prize. Surely this is so easy that if you don't name one, someone else in this room surely can. Tellya what, I'll even start by naming three dissident scientists who won the Nobel: Dr. Barbara McClintock (1983 Medicine, discovered gene transposition) Dr. Kary Mullis (1993 Chemistry, discovered the PCR technique which is used, among other things, to count viral load) Dr. Walter Gilbert (1980 Chemistry, pioneered methods for determining nucleotide sequences in nucleic acids.) --- Gos Sun, 10 Dec 2006 04:55:53 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#5e5d7801-0799-408f-b1ff-ee343266cc64 Gos 2006-12-10T04:55:53Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#e7d54cb6-fca4-4798-9afd-d71d510933e1 Kash wrote: "Does anyone take anything seriously, especially the lives of other people who are coping with HIV/AIDS. I would venture to say the invention of HIV meds has distorted the whole issue and resulted in troubling phemon of those who shrug off the notions that HIV IS deadly. With that these people forget that drugs, the rare cases of those who are "ïmmuned" are beacons of light in the face of such dark tragedy... the core of that dark tragedy existing in Africa and third world countries. Those who dream up this arm chair science bullshit don't give a shit about those countries or even what going on here at home but fool themse;lves into believing they are some brand of activist when they are furthest from it." Kash, I really wish you'd known me when I was actually dying from so-called "AIDS". You wouldn't say what you're saying now, and I certainly have every reason to take offense at your insinuation that I don't know or care about the plight of people living with AIDS. It just so happens that I used to be one of them, until I was nearly killed by my doctor in November of 2000. Since then, I've recovered my health without ARVs, by finding and treating the REAL cause of the illness I used to have. What armchair bullshit? I've LIVED what I'm talking about. For two years, Kash, I complained to my doctor that I was sick, and that I felt that it was the mold in my apartment that was making me sick, but she kept insisting that I was healthy as a horse and that I was her "miracle patient" whose immune system was so great that I'd never get AIDS, especially not with all the great drugs she was prescribing for me. She based this medical opinion solely on the fact that my CD4 counts were high (sometimes as high as 1700+) and my viral load had always remained low or non-detectable. Because of this, she completely ignored the clinical symptoms I was describing, and instead insisted that I was perfectly healthy, despite the fact that I obviously looked like death warmed over and constantly complained of severe illness. It took me developing pneumonia so severe that it hurt like hell just to take a teaspoonful or so of air into my lungs, for her to finally even acknowledge that I was sick. By then it was almost too late for me -- I nearly died. When this happened, she finally referred me to a respiratory specialist (something that if she'd done two years earlier, I would have never developed pneumonia in the first place.) The respiratory specialist referred me to an allergist, and whaddaya know, it turned out I was extremely allergic to the sorts of toxic mold that we have in the Houston area, and which was growing like wild throughout my entire apartment complex, due to flood damage from 5 years earlier that had never been properly repaired. Don't tell me I'm disrespecting those with AIDS, and that I don't know what it's like to be told you're dying of it -- if anything, I'm trying to save as many people as I can from the sort of death that I very nearly experienced 6 years ago, (almost to the day), due to the misdiagnosis and inappropriate medical treatment that occurs whenever one tests false positive on a test for antibodies to a virus that's never been proven to exist. (And what sorts of things cause one to test false positive? Why most of them are illnesses, including quite a number of AIDS-indicator diseases. Go figure.) Gak indeed. --- Gos Sun, 10 Dec 2006 04:35:31 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#e7d54cb6-fca4-4798-9afd-d71d510933e1 Gos 2006-12-10T04:35:31Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#a018427e-a2bc-4a1f-bb70-f2ca085a388e Irrelevant...your entire post is irrelevant. Sun, 10 Dec 2006 03:46:02 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#a018427e-a2bc-4a1f-bb70-f2ca085a388e $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-10T03:46:02Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8578dfd8-a3ed-4ae8-af67-243b5dd0e795 Addressing MJ's original thread question, "Do you care about the status of your sexual partners?" I do. I only date positive guys. I wouldn't ever want to take the chance of giving this to someone negative. I've been positive for about 6 years. I had a very high viral load and my t-cell count was pretty low before I got on med's. I've worked hard at changing my life style; having better nutriution, plenty of rest and exercise, keeping my stress level at a manageable level, and taking my med's regularily. It took time, but I went from a 199 cd4 count to the mid 600's where I am now. My viral load is so low now, that I'm considered "undetectable." For me the subject is very real. I lost my only brother to Aids in the late 80's. He didn't have access to the many hiv drugs that are availeable now. He died a horrible, slow death. It tore my family apart. It is my duty (to my parents and myself) to stay alive and experiance good quality of Life. My health, and the health of my lover, is my highest priority at all times. We are both doing very well. Lucian Sun, 10 Dec 2006 00:58:09 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#8578dfd8-a3ed-4ae8-af67-243b5dd0e795 Lucian 2006-12-10T00:58:09Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#97b0f554-9fff-4187-90d1-a6b5033be59c >>He opened up a "Pandora's Box" of both rudeness and insensitivity toward persons who have AIDS and I am just choking the little fuck with it. I'm just quoting Jake from the previous thread here because i REFUSE to engage in making the first thread any longer, here. The sentiments above are absolutely regarding a certain poster. I took some time to go through almost every post in the first thread and Tomas didn't make a lick of sense and instead managed to turn a world wide pandemic into........................ a game........a video one at that. Does anyone take anything seriously, especially the lives of other people who are coping with HIV/AIDS. I would venture to say the invention of HIV meds has distorted the whole issue and resulted in troubling phemon of those who shrug off the notions that HIV IS deadly. With that these people forget that drugs, the rare cases of those who are "ïmmuned" are beacons of light in the face of such dark tragedy... the core of that dark tragedy existing in Africa and third world countries. Those who dream up this arm chair science bullshit don't give a shit about those countries or even what going on here at home but fool themse;lves into believing they are some brand of activist when they are furthest from it. Undoing what has been done to provide sufficient data to help people avoid this disease and possibly cure it.. Some of the stuff provided is so dangerous in fact that it could, would and should be used by some republicrat to regulate an immunization or even cure if it ever came to that. To be perfectly honest, denialist, who claim AIDS as a myth of any variety are passe gay liberations who probably wanna continue fucking in the bathhouses on meth and don't care about the community....... or even believe in it or now it's meaning. Far more respectable work is being done now. Denialist hopefully will stay on the bandwagon of freakish counterculture cults without any real purpose other than to shout the sky is red when it's obviously blue just because the word red exist and it's different. gak. Sat, 09 Dec 2006 23:49:43 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#97b0f554-9fff-4187-90d1-a6b5033be59c $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-09T23:49:43Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#0dae1d8c-6ab8-4bea-9c44-9cce7fa0d08e Does anyone in this thread own a Playstation? Sat, 09 Dec 2006 19:07:36 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#0dae1d8c-6ab8-4bea-9c44-9cce7fa0d08e Jake 2006-12-09T19:07:36Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#726733ed-dafa-49b2-80cc-0e5fe69a32ed Sure, I'll grab my blanket too for this round......it's chilly outside. Sat, 09 Dec 2006 15:40:16 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#726733ed-dafa-49b2-80cc-0e5fe69a32ed Arne 2006-12-09T15:40:16Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#52670a84-a975-4ed1-b078-5524563073b5 Do you want some popcorn? Sat, 09 Dec 2006 15:28:25 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#52670a84-a975-4ed1-b078-5524563073b5 $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-09T15:28:25Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#73a08b0f-8ead-4c86-8884-056331c778ac Hi My name is Bob, Bob Blahla...... Sat, 09 Dec 2006 14:52:04 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#73a08b0f-8ead-4c86-8884-056331c778ac Arne 2006-12-09T14:52:04Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#30aae6d1-4a9d-4afc-84db-9e872b4cfb48 <<So, hammer away, but I've told you my stand on your "4-proofs _challenge_," ...>> Wally, are you still yammering away about that??? I let you off that hook yesterday, seeing that you obviously couldn't answer even one of those. I've offered you a much easier out already. Name ONE Nobel laureate among your precious orthodox AIDS researchers. ONE. That's something that I won't be able to dispute if you do it. It's unambiguous, and not in any way subject to interpretation. Name ONE non-dissident AIDS researcher who has won the Nobel Prize. Surely, if they've saved so many people from the dread scourge of AID$, there should be many. Name ONE. --- Gos Sat, 09 Dec 2006 01:16:35 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#30aae6d1-4a9d-4afc-84db-9e872b4cfb48 Gos 2006-12-09T01:16:35Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#25d33f46-894e-4f62-8ab9-6f8ada59f82e (thanks for carrying this over to a new thread strand, MJ. My head was starting to spin from the length of the original thread!) Sat, 09 Dec 2006 00:43:48 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#25d33f46-894e-4f62-8ab9-6f8ada59f82e Lucian 2006-12-09T00:43:48Z http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#e8e02d6c-38d4-494e-b3db-9a1225efa98e Fire away! and you were saying? Fri, 08 Dec 2006 20:42:16 GMT http://altgays.tribe.net/thread/11ddbc24-5967-4180-80a8-8e42de54dd2d#e8e02d6c-38d4-494e-b3db-9a1225efa98e $item.owner.firstName 2006-12-08T20:42:16Z